Black Titanium coat on Elmax blade?

Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Messages
36
There is a current Kickstarter campaign from WESN for a little 3" fixed blade called Bornas. It is well into the campaign and several "stretch" options have been unlocked. The one that I want to discuss is the Black Titanium coating. Steel starts at S35vn with an upgrade to Elmax. My question- is there any real benefit to adding this Black Ti coating to either of these steels beyond cosmetic? A black blade is cool but coatings wear and chip. I usually prefer uncoated unless it's high carbon steel. What do you think coating or no on S35vn or Elmax (I'm going with Elmax)? I'm no expert and would appreciate some input/discussion. Thanks.
 
In the world of machine tools there are all kinds of coatings. They all add something, even to solid carbide. Many include Titanium.
  • Titanium Aluminum Nitride (TiAlN)
  • Aluminium Titanium Nitride (AlTiN)
  • Titanium Carbonitride TiCN.
  • Titanium Nitride (TiN)
  • Aluminum Chromium Nitride (AlCrN)
  • Titanium DiBoride (Tib2)
  • Zirconium Nitride (ZrN)
  • Diamond.
Just depends which coating you are talking about.
 
In the world of machine tools there are all kinds of coatings. They all add something, even to solid carbide. Many include Titanium.
  • Titanium Aluminum Nitride (TiAlN)
  • Aluminium Titanium Nitride (AlTiN)
  • Titanium Carbonitride TiCN.
  • Titanium Nitride (TiN)
  • Aluminum Chromium Nitride (AlCrN)
  • Titanium DiBoride (Tib2)
  • Zirconium Nitride (ZrN)
  • Diamond.
Just depends which coating you are talking about.
Company is an existing edc/knife designer/seller. Not sure if they actually own the place that makes their blades. They aren't specific to the type of "black Ti" coating. It costs $35 so I don't imagine it's a really high end coating. I plan to do normal cutting activities - cardboard, rope, soft wood and perhaps some food. I'm neither a ninja, nor a hunter. I just want opinion whether it's worth getting the black Ti coat on an Elmax fixed blade? Thanks again
 
You will not need a coating with either steel. It’s purely cosmetic for these two. Something to consider, dlc type flat black coated blades will have slightly more drag when cutting through material. They look good depending on the knife imo
9BF29B8C-CA75-4663-AE1F-709A4D3E1D85.jpeg
 
Hey thanks Tony, especially for the list. I wrote to WESN when they announced the ELMAX upgrade from S35vn and told them that for $125 extra, I wasn't sure if ELMAX could be considered a real "upgrade" from S35vn. The list you posted puts ELMAX behind S35 arguably. Now you're making me think I should just stay with the S35 since I'm not battoning with a 3" blade. Originally they said the upgrade would be to Vanax super clean. You've given me something to think about, thanks again.
 
Hey thanks Tony, especially for the list. I wrote to WESN when they announced the ELMAX upgrade from S35vn and told them that for $125 extra, I wasn't sure if ELMAX could be considered a real "upgrade" from S35vn. The list you posted puts ELMAX behind S35 arguably. Now you're making me think I should just stay with the S35 since I'm not battoning with a 3" blade. Originally they said the upgrade would be to Vanax super clean. You've given me something to think about, thanks again.

Elmax is generally a better steel in my opinion. Notice that Elmax has the same ratings as S45VN on the above chart. In theory, Elmax will be a little better on both edge retention and corrosion resistance. S35VN is tougher than Elmax but it's not like Elmax is hurting for toughness. Using the chart, Elmax is as tough as VG-10 or S30V, and tougher than a bunch of widely used blade steels including 440C, 154CM, N690, and M390.

Unfortunately, it gets more complicated than that. Remember that Larrin's chart is rating these steels based on an optimal heat treatment. That's not necessarily what you're going to get with production knives. This often shows in edge retention and how close a production knife gets to its ideal performance can vary a lot from company to company. They say this one will be made in Sweden. That could be a good thing but who knows? I wouldn't expect them to be terrible or anything. It's just worth tempering expectations a little between the chart's ratings and the real-world edge retention for production knives.

Now, there is a sizeable elephant in the room. I find the kick starter page a little messy and obtuse but it looks like the base model in S35VN is $125. It looks like the price doubles to $250 for Elmax. I'd ask if one in Elmax is better than two in S35VN, but there also seems to be a "buy two, get one free" on the base model... You'd need to figure out exactly how the upgrades and/or sales apply but it seems a little steep to me.
 
How'd you know? Who do you work for?
Actually I'm only a ninja on Wednesdays during leap year.
Me too!!!

But only when February 29th falls on a Wednesday, those days I must fulfill my sacred oath to the order...

Maybe we'll cross paths one day, 1st drinks on me!
(Unless of course you work for that "other" order)....
 
Elmax is generally a better steel in my opinion. Notice that Elmax has the same ratings as S45VN on the above chart. In theory, Elmax will be a little better on both edge retention and corrosion resistance. S35VN is tougher than Elmax but it's not like Elmax is hurting for toughness. Using the chart, Elmax is as tough as VG-10 or S30V, and tougher than a bunch of widely used blade steels including 440C, 154CM, N690, and M390.

Unfortunately, it gets more complicated than that. Remember that Larrin's chart is rating these steels based on an optimal heat treatment. That's not necessarily what you're going to get with production knives. This often shows in edge retention and how close a production knife gets to its ideal performance can vary a lot from company to company. They say this one will be made in Sweden. That could be a good thing but who knows? I wouldn't expect them to be terrible or anything. It's just worth tempering expectations a little between the chart's ratings and the real-world edge retention for production knives.

Now, there is a sizeable elephant in the room. I find the kick starter page a little messy and obtuse but it looks like the base model in S35VN is $125. It looks like the price doubles to $250 for Elmax. I'd ask if one in Elmax is better than two in S35VN, but there also seems to be a "buy two, get one free" on the base model... You'd need to figure out exactly how the upgrades and/or sales apply but it seems a little steep to me.
I was an earl bird so I got the base for $110. More than doubling the price to a total of $235 for the Elmax upgrade is totally steep. I have a few more add ons and my total was nearing $500 for a 3" fixed blade. I'm so glad I posted and grateful to you all, because it adjusted my perception. I dropped the Elmax. I just got a Fox Core in Elmax for $150. Now I realize I'm comparing the price of a folder to a fixed, but my point is that WESN definitely charges a lot for their knives. I'm not a hard use guy, so a S35 fixie will do just fine for my needs. The $125 extra for Elmax is too steep. My favorite fixed blade is S35 and I've never had a single issue. They announced a final stretch goal that will be another steel upgrade. I'm thinking they will either go Vanax or Magnacut. Let's see how much they charge for that?!? I'm on the waiting list for the new Tactile Dreadeye, a 3" fixed in Magnacut and that's only $200! Anyhow, thank you to all who posted and helped me make my decision. This is actually my first post on BF and it's been a good experience. I'm always surprised how knowledgeable and helpful the knife community is. Thank you all and happy 2023.
 
Titanium or any other similar Vapor coating, like DLC, will usually create few microns harder than the metal underneath surface,
therefore helping the actual blade not to get some scratches. Such coatings in my experience are very easy to clean, does not wear as ceracote or paint,
and they maintain new look longer. I guess this is the idea, other than give you ninja looking black blade or the obvious - to prevent corrosion,
that those two particular steels really don't need as they mentioned early in the thread..
 
I agree that it would be more of a cosmetic addition. But, my experience with coatings like this that they tend to show "wear" quickly. My Bugout with PVD coating gets scuffed and gets streaked from just cutting through heavy cardboard. I guess it's a trade-off and depends on preference and use. At the end of the day, it is a tool and not macho jewelry, so it's functionality is what counts, at least for me. I have to admit that it took me a while to use a $350 knife as an actual knife, lol.
 
But, my experience with coatings like this that they tend to show "wear" quickly. My Bugout with PVD coating gets scuffed and gets streaked from just cutting through heavy cardboard. I guess it's a trade-off and depends on preference and use.
If it's a DLC coating, it's more likely the material being cut leaving particles on the coating rather than the coating getting scuffed. A thorough cleaning and scrubbing will usually get rid of the scuffs and streaks.
 
I'm sure you are right, my fault. I was generalizing about my experience with coatings. My original post asks about a "black Ti" coating and it's exact makeup is not identified. I'm sure results vary based on coating and individual. Thanks though.
 
I'm far from arguing with you but the only coating listed for Bugout on Benchmade site is Cerakote, didn't see PVD option.
Benchmade Bugout
I'm sure you are right, my fault. I was generalizing about my experience with coatings. My original post asks about a "black Ti" coating and it's exact makeup is not identified. I'm sure results vary based on coating and individual. Thanks though.
 
Why isn’t 3V on that chart?
He made a different chart for non stainless, *charts provided by Larrin, our resident metallurgist

6FAF86F7-4A62-4B44-91A6-FB0EBB9B2777.jpeg

And here are the specific HTs, as well as the number of cuts made for each steel
7D1DACC5-F118-420F-987C-279DC5BA7343.jpeg
 
Back
Top