Blackberry vines destroyed the edge on my machete?!?!

S

Squashfan

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Jun 6, 2012
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A 28 inch stainless Imacasa. There was a little burr left from the sharpening process but not much. After very light use cutting blackberries, the belly (which is the main part I used) was completely rolled. And what wasn't rolled was chipped. It looks like I was trying to chop nails laying in dirt. I am not kidding. But the machete did NOT touch dirt when I was using it and it never left my hands, so I know what happened to it.

I was horrified at the damage and have already tried to repair one side of the bevel. If I had thought about it I would have taken pictures but most of the damage is gone. I can still see some small chips. And there are a couple of places where it looks like the bevel nearest the apex deformed. Not chipped, just deformed. How on earth could mere blackberry vines do this??? I would guesstimate the bevels to be between 30 and 40 degrees inclusive.
 
Not too familiar with machetes. Is Imacasa a style or manufacturer? What type of stainless? Was it the factory edge or one you had resharpened? If you were only cutting vine like vegetation and that did damage to a knife edge to look like chipping I would hazard that it had a bad HT or none at all?

I think more info is needed. You say damage is already fixed, mostly. Have any pics of what you were cutting?
 
I can speculate, but the only way I can imagine that happening is if the blade was being twisted as it went through a very tough vine. My old property had a lot of wild grape and some of those could become very tough as they got larger, combined with the ability to swing free if you didn't catch them at a good angle. I do not recall ever having a lot of damage done. I did switch to using a light, thin, 16" corn knife - more speed + thin backbevel worked better for that job.

I keep my machetes including two Imacasas at approx 30 inclusive on a convex edge. Have never had a problem with chipping, even on hardwood.
 
I was honestly stumped when I saw the damage. I started the edge with a 12 inch bastard file and had gone 220, 320, 400, 600, 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I was finishing it with black compound on paper over a stone. Could my sharpening have weakened the edge in any way? As soon as I realized the extent of the damage, I grabbed a piece of 600 grit sand paper and wrapped it around a piece of wood, like I had been doing. It did reduce/flip the roll but there were still chips in the edge. After I used the sand paper, I looked at the edge with my loupe. I looked like where ever the edge was used it suffered damage. I seem to remember someone on here saying that stainless Imacasa may not be quite as good as the carbon. But that either would work.

Edit: I think I will sharpen it and try again. If I get the same kind of damage, should I assume that it is has a bad heat treat? I blame my sharpening or technique before I will blame the machete. One thing I didn't mention, it is winter here so these are old, dead vines.
 
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Squashfan said:
I was honestly stumped when I saw the damage. I started the edge with a 12 inch bastard file and had gone 220, 320, 400, 600, 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I was finishing it with black compound on paper over a stone. Could my sharpening have weakened the edge in any way? As soon as I realized the extent of the damage, I grabbed a piece of 600 grit sand paper and wrapped it around a piece of wood, like I had been doing. It did reduce/flip the roll but there were still chips in the edge. After I used the sand paper, I looked at the edge with my loupe. I looked like where ever the edge was used it suffered damage. I seem to remember someone on here saying that stainless Imacasa may not be quite as good as the carbon. But that either would work.

Edit: I think I will sharpen it and try again. If I get the same kind of damage, should I assume that it is has a bad heat treat? I blame my sharpening or technique before I will blame the machete. One thing I didn't mention, it is winter here so these are old, dead vines.
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Sometimes the factory edge is pretty cooked, especially on a less expensive tool like most machetes. I don't know about the stainless being a factor, I guess its possible. You've got the right idea, I'd take a little more steel off just the way you're doing it and try again. If it continues to fail I'd consider returning it or sending it to the dust bin. 30-40 inclusive should handle it well, blackberry vines shouldn't pose that big a problem.
 
To the best of my knowledge Imacasa doesn't make 28" stainless machetes. It's probably their regular 1075. Old hardened brambles can actually be harder on an edge than chopping a hardwood log, because the small diameter of the stalks concentrates the force to one small spot rather than being spread out more like when striking a log. 30° included angle should hold up just fine to that work, though. Did you measure that angle or are you just estimating it? It's possible you took it too thin.
 
That's why I stop sharpening my imacasa after the file step. They take a beating and not worth the time to use that many steps.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Sometimes the factory edge is pretty cooked, especially on a less expensive tool like most machetes. I don't know about the stainless being a factor, I guess its possible. You've got the right idea, I'd take a little more steel off just the way you're doing it and try again. If it continues to fail I'd consider returning it or sending it to the dust bin. 30-40 inclusive should handle it well, blackberry vines shouldn't pose that big a problem.
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What factory edge? No, seriously, when I got this machete from SMKW, I am not even sure there was a place on it where the two "bevels" touched. Maybe near the tip when the distal taper got really thin but I honestly can't even remember. It has been redone with a 12 inch bastard file twice since then. Once following the factory edge and latter at a lower angle. I don't have a good way of measuring the edge angle. I gave the current bevels a shot with the 90-45-22.5 test. It looks they are between 25 and 20 degrees per side. Total and complete guesstimate on my part.

Fortytwoblades, what you are describing is consistent with the kind of damage I saw. Dips in the edge about the size of a vine. Like a very large chip about the size of my little finger nail.

Oh, BTW, I got the roll out and eliminated the burr. Wasn't hard since taking the roll took the apex with it. I think this one maybe like Softrockrenegade said, sharpen with a file. I will probably strop it though. I will leave the fancy sandpaper to other machetes. Ones that cut softer materials.
 
Squashfan said:
What factory edge? No, seriously, when I got this machete from SMKW, I am not even sure there was a place on it where the two "bevels" touched. Maybe near the tip when the distal taper got really thin but I honestly can't even remember. It has been redone with a 12 inch bastard file twice since then. Once following the factory edge and latter at a lower angle. I don't have a good way of measuring the edge angle. I gave the current bevels a shot with the 90-45-22.5 test. It looks they are between 25 and 20 degrees per side. Total and complete guesstimate on my part.

Fortytwoblades, what you are describing is consistent with the kind of damage I saw. Dips in the edge about the size of a vine. Like a very large chip about the size of my little finger nail.

Oh, BTW, I got the roll out and eliminated the burr. Wasn't hard since taking the roll took the apex with it. I think this one maybe like Softrockrenegade said, sharpen with a file. I will probably strop it though. I will leave the fancy sandpaper to other machetes. Ones that cut softer materials.
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Sir, that just plain sucks. If the edge has been done twice with a large file, there's nothing left of the original factory "edge", overheated or not. My Imacasa machetes (one Panga pattern, and one is a Marbles 14") are both carbon and handle a lot of abuse. The odd very small chip is not uncommon, but the definitive is 'very small'. They take and hold a great edge, my 14" has seen many hours of hard chopping with very little complaint, plenty of dead vines included. I wonder if a letter might be in order, or just toss the thing and order a Tramontina. You could also make it a pass around and see if others experience the same issues and to what degree. Vines are tough, they shouldn't be tougher than hardened steel, not without many whacks.

Martin
 
I am not ready to give up on it yet. It may still be something in the way I sharpened it.

A shout out to you, Heavyhanded. I grabbed my 10" file and redid the damaged part. I did one bevel and raised the burr. Then I did the other bevel and flipped the burr once. Lightly touched the first bevel again with the file and I almost can't feel the burr. I am hoping that a strop with black compound will take care of it. If not, I will do it again until I get it in the one flip.

I have every one of the Marble's machetes except the camp cleaver. The 18 inch was my go to machete before this and it is what convinced me to go longer because I kept getting thorns in my hand. I even have the Marble's parang.
 
Squashfan said:
I am not ready to give up on it yet. It may still be something in the way I sharpened it.

A shout out to you, Heavyhanded. I grabbed my 10" file and redid the damaged part. I did one bevel and raised the burr. Then I did the other bevel and flipped the burr once. Lightly touched the first bevel again with the file and I almost can't feel the burr. I am hoping that a strop with black compound will take care of it. If not, I will do it again until I get it in the one flip.

I have every one of the Marble's machetes except the camp cleaver. The 18 inch was my go to machete before this and it is what convinced me to go longer because I kept getting thorns in my hand. I even have the Marble's parang.
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I find that even using it with a draw, my file-worked edges are still often carrying a burr, tho quite small, that has to be brushed off with a stone or similar prior to stropping. If you can bring yourself to work the entire thing on a stone, in overlapping sections, you could likely guarantee the edge quality. When you sharpened it on sandpaper, what methods were you using?

I made a video showing the Washboard on my 14" Marbles that might be helpful. A similar technique can be used with a combination stone, diamond plate etc or sandpaper wrapped around some flat stock or block of wood. The sandpaper works very well like this, as a lot of the debris that normally sits on the surface and needs to be cleaned off, will just fall away and be caught by the fabric on your leg.

At some point I'd likely throw up my hands, hang it on a nail in the back of the garage, and it can be bought by someone else for a buck at the Estate sale...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uidso_8KJ38
 
I, too, have noticed that filed edges tend to leave a burr. On a tool the size of this one, I prefer to hold the stone or abrasive. I like the idea of working it on a stone but I don't know if I can hold the stone while working the edge. My stone is a two sided oil stone so it may be a little heavy for holding while the machete is clamped. Or should I try to hold the tool and keep the stone on the counter?

Back to my technique: The machete is clamped to a table or counter with a long piece of wood under it for support. Sharpie on the bevel. I have a piece of plywood that I wrap the sandpaper around. I actually got the idea to use sandpaper from your video. I saw that video a couple of months ago. You make long strokes down the length of the edge. I use shorter strokes that run more "out" from the edge rather than your long strokes down the edge. Work both sides and flip the burr a couple of times until the burr gets small enough to go to the next grit size. Then I strop the edge.

The reason I have not given up is that I am still such a novice sharpener. I am just out of the "sometimes it is sharp, sometimes it isn't" stage where you don't alway have an improvement. I am in the "burr plagues me with every edge" but, if by some chance, I happen to knock the burr off, I get a really great edge. But most of the time, the burr breaks off durring use leaving me with an ok edge. Better than most, worse than some.

Thanks for the help,
Charles
 
Squashfan said:
I, too, have noticed that filed edges tend to leave a burr. On a tool the size of this one, I prefer to hold the stone or abrasive. I like the idea of working it on a stone but I don't know if I can hold the stone while working the edge. My stone is a two sided oil stone so it may be a little heavy for holding while the machete is clamped. Or should I try to hold the tool and keep the stone on the counter?

Back to my technique: The machete is clamped to a table or counter with a long piece of wood under it for support. Sharpie on the bevel. I have a piece of plywood that I wrap the sandpaper around. I actually got the idea to use sandpaper from your video. I saw that video a couple of months ago. You make long strokes down the length of the edge. I use shorter strokes that run more "out" from the edge rather than your long strokes down the edge. Work both sides and flip the burr a couple of times until the burr gets small enough to go to the next grit size. Then I strop the edge.

The reason I have not given up is that I am still such a novice sharpener. I am just out of the "sometimes it is sharp, sometimes it isn't" stage where you don't alway have an improvement. I am in the "burr plagues me with every edge" but, if by some chance, I happen to knock the burr off, I get a really great edge. But most of the time, the burr breaks off durring use leaving me with an ok edge. Better than most, worse than some.

Thanks for the help,
Charles
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You're at a good stage, once you more or less master the burr, you're at the top of the bell curve in many respects so you're very close.

I use more of a 45 degree raked downward from the shoulder, though not easy to see from the camera angle. This is mostly out of habit for crafting good draw cutting edges, but I also find it works great for burr removal and its what I'm used to seeing on my cutting bevels. In the case of this video, once I raise the burr and verify, I can remove it using the slack of the paper with a very light leading stroke, still keeping (for the most part) a 45 degree rake angle. This takes patience and a bit of observation, especially on a larger tool like a machete. Also helps a great deal to make that burr as small as possible to start. Once the edge is burr free, the compound on newspaper over a stone works very reliably. A small amount of microconvexing that is undesirable on smaller knives, is frequently a good thing on larger, lower RC choppers, so precise angle and pressure control aren't really needed. If its burr free and can shave arm hair, it doesn't need to be three finger sticky or anything.

In the video I made reworking a TruTemper hatchet, I show how I use a small amount of mineral oil with the compound to make a slurry on the paper. This might help with finishing your machete a little easier, just don't use newspaper, start with copy or writing paper - the oil will break the ink down into the slurry and interferes with the compound.

I also linked to an electronic copy of the Washboard manual in the latest sale thread (through my Sig), page 11 and 12 deal with this too and might be helpful - color sketches included.

Stay on it! Imacasa isn't known for pooching their HT, though when all other explanations have been exhausted...

Martin
 
I haven't exhausted all explanations yet. I think I will sharpen the 18" marbles the same way I do the 28" imacasa and see how they compare on the same vines.
 
Used the stone like a file and wow did I get good results. Thanks for the tip. I will have to redo part of the belly because my hand got tired and I let the back of the stone drag creating a microbevel/burr. And I think I will need an other stone so I don't mess this one up. The way the stone works the bevel will leave the sides lower than the center. It is my good knife stone and I don't want that happening.
 
Squashfan said:
Used the stone like a file and wow did I get good results. Thanks for the tip. I will have to redo part of the belly because my hand got tired and I let the back of the stone drag creating a microbevel/burr. And I think I will need an other stone so I don't mess this one up. The way the stone works the bevel will leave the sides lower than the center. It is my good knife stone and I don't want that happening.
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Cool, let me know how it cuts.
 
As an example, one of the few times that I've experienced that kind of chip-out was when doing initial testing on a Mora #333 before I started carrying them (I wanted to make sure they'd actually work as a machete) and I cut some green woody bushes with the factory edge (which is ground VERY thin) and it resulted in the same thing being described. I then applied a steeper bevel (still only 15° per side) and it fixed the problem completely, which is why I perform the same treatment to all of them I sell unless requested otherwise by the customer. That's what makes me wonder about if you took the edge too thin, as that's the only time I've noticed an edge behave that way.

And as far as the factory "edge" on most blue-collar machetes, I like to call it a "courtesy grind" that just speeds up the sharpening process for the end user. Keeps the cost for the end user down so a field worker can still afford it.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
As an example, one of the few times that I've experienced that kind of chip-out was when doing initial testing on a Mora #333 before I started carrying them (I wanted to make sure they'd actually work as a machete) and I cut some green woody bushes with the factory edge (which is ground VERY thin) and it resulted in the same thing being described. I then applied a steeper bevel (still only 15° per side) and it fixed the problem completely, which is why I perform the same treatment to all of them I sell unless requested otherwise by the customer. That's what makes me wonder about if you took the edge too thin, as that's the only time I've noticed an edge behave that way.

And as far as the factory "edge" on most blue-collar machetes, I like to call it a "courtesy grind" that just speeds up the sharpening process for the end user. Keeps the cost for the end user down so a field worker can still afford it.
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The only time I've really had any small chipouts on an edge like this was, curious enough, on my Marbles Jungle 14" Imacasa. I worked the factory edge down a bit on the sides, but didn't really take much off the apex, just enough to form a burr and remove it. The edge dinged and chipped a little under heavy use. I went back and ground a nicer convex, totally eliminating all original steel from the apex. The thing has been a work-horse ever since.
 
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