Blade Centering

M

MarkPinTx

Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
801
Ok. I see a lot of folks criticizing knives based on blade centering. Mind, this is centering on its own (vel non if you are fancy), not a lack of centering that causes rub. Is this really an issue with slipjoints?

First, my experience began with multiple blade patterns where centering is difficult to evaluate, again short of blade rub.

Centering seems to be an issue that sort of originated with the tactical type knives, with their adjustable pivots and frame and liner locks exerting lateral pressure on the blades. It may be related also to the degree of "interference" between the frame lock and tang that the tactical guys love to obsess over.

I suppose it can still be evaluated on a slipjoint as a measure of quality, but it seems so difficult to achieve with peened pivots that it is almost unfair to evaluate on this basis. This is doubly or triply true on a multiblade.

Am I just finding excuses for slipjoints?
 
I'm with you, Mark. Some people are way too critical of unimportant details on factory knives. Centering is nice, but as long as it doesn't rub, then no big deal. To make sure every blade was perfectly centered would add substantially to the price of any production folder. Custom knives are a different story. The little details are what separates them from production knives, and are the reason to spend the extra money.

I actually prefer a blade to be slightly off-center toward the nick side, giving me more clearance to the liner or other blades when pressure is applied to open the knife.
 
I don't like off centered blades very much but I haven't found it to be an issue. All of my Case knives are centered and all of my GEC knives are centered and none were in hand before buying them. I'm not wild about crinked blades but certainly respect the difficulty in getting it right without blade rub.

Regards

Robin
 
As long as there's no blade-rub I'm fine with it in an inexpensive knife.
 
Same here, uncentered but no rub on a sub-$100 knife is fine with me. Now when we get to higher end and custom knives, I expect blades to be well centered.
 
Blade centering is one of several indicators of an ideal of perfection when evaluating a knife. Centered blade. Springs flush when closed, open, or in half-stop position. Lack of any gaps between liners, springs, handles. Consistent coloring and jigging between scales. Blades that do not sit too proud when open, nor strike the springs when closed. Strength and smoothness of pulls. Accessibility, placement, and style of nail nicks. Blades that do not rub, or do not rub excessively. Evenness of edge bevel, sharpness, quality of factory edge.

For each of those qualities, there will be variations from the ideal. Some knives may vary slightly in a few of them, some are ideal in some and way off in others. For each purchaser, there will be levels of acceptability of deviation from the ideal, depending on price point and their intended use of the knife.

Some demand very high levels of adherence to the ideals, no matter the price. They often will have to shop far and wide to find the $30 knife that happens to hit all of their requirements. Some are forgiving of things that don't affect function, if it's going to be a user. Some have specific "I can't stand it if a knife does this..." rules.

Me personally, I'd prefer a relatively well-centered knife if I gave it much thought, but when I look at the ones I carry and use, I see that they are not perfectly centered and had I not looked for it, I would have never noticed.

If I were going for a collector's item display piece, or for later trade or sale, then I am going to want the cream of the crop. Just like everyone else does.
 
Long as there is no blade rub I am good. The GECs I own are all pretty much well centered. Of my Case knives my Peanut is a little off center. Other than that the Peanut is real good in fit & finish.
 
I like centered blades and , if one of mine is very far off-center, I'll krink it into its rightful place. Takes from thirty seconds to two minutes and I don't think it would add appreciably to the cost of a knife, if the cutler would take the time to center each blade that pases throutgh his hands. It would be a sign of pride in my work and craftsmanship, if I were a cutler.
 
Most of mine just happen to be centered or very close, but I don't really worry about it. As said, if there's no rub against the liner is all I really care about. All my knives are bought online, so I don't see them til they arrive. The majority of the time they're centered or very close to it.
 
I think I have noticed that some of my knives, the blades become uncentered from repeated nail nick pressure. Just slightly. When I check out a slipjoint, I check first for walk and talk and also look at the blades for rub marks. If I see them, then I look further to see if there's strike or serious interference. Part of the walk and talk evaluation is the ease of access to the nicks. I have had a knife or two that bottomed out on the spring, which is a major bummer, but I rarely remember to evaluate that, in part because I try not to let them slam shut, and that would be particularly true of a knife I was looking at (depending in part on the sensitivity of the seller). I hope I would notice the telltale flat spot on the edge though.

Centering on its own just doesn't really come up for me.
 
I've had more than one fine fellow call me at 3AM to scream profanities at me because I mentioned returning a defective knife of whatever brand they collect. It seems they always make excuses for less-than-perfect centering, but centering--unless it causes blades to rub, or I have to actually bend the blades in order for them not to strike the liners--has never been a concern of mine.

It is always nice to see perfectly-centered blades on customs, but I see that as a sign of attention to detail, much like clocked screws on a fine shotgun. As long as they function OK, I don't care if a production folder has blades that aren't centered, any more than I care if a production pistol has clocked screws.
 
jc57 said:
Blade centering is one of several indicators of an ideal of perfection when evaluating a knife. Centered blade. Springs flush when closed, open, or in half-stop position. Lack of any gaps between liners, springs, handles. Consistent coloring and jigging between scales. Blades that do not sit too proud when open, nor strike the springs when closed. Strength and smoothness of pulls. Accessibility, placement, and style of nail nicks. Blades that do not rub, or do not rub excessively. Evenness of edge bevel, sharpness, quality of factory edge.

For each of those qualities, there will be variations from the ideal. Some knives may vary slightly in a few of them, some are ideal in some and way off in others. For each purchaser, there will be levels of acceptability of deviation from the ideal, depending on price point and their intended use of the knife.

Some demand very high levels of adherence to the ideals, no matter the price. They often will have to shop far and wide to find the $30 knife that happens to hit all of their requirements. Some are forgiving of things that don't affect function, if it's going to be a user. Some have specific "I can't stand it if a knife does this..." rules.

Me personally, I'd prefer a relatively well-centered knife if I gave it much thought, but when I look at the ones I carry and use, I see that they are not perfectly centered and had I not looked for it, I would have never noticed.

If I were going for a collector's item display piece, or for later trade or sale, then I am going to want the cream of the crop. Just like everyone else does.
Click to expand...

I just want to quote this so everyone reads it again.

Getting the geometry correct so everything is flush is hard enough. On a custom knife, the table of the drill press being off square side to side or front to back only a tiny tiny amount can make a very noticeable difference in blade centering.

Then add in custom knives with multiple blades on the same spring, or a three to five bladed knife that has sub millimeter clearances between swedged, krinked, and nicely ground blades that have no rub and you'll understand why customs cost so stinking much.

Kinsey's peanut had a bit of blade rub, and it drove me crazy because it was supposed to be a heirloom type knife, but they couldn't replace a knife made on a certain day, and I wasn't trusting the Case repair place not to just replace it, so I lightly krinked it on my own. Now it's near perfect. My ordinary users, nah, never looked, as long as there is no blade rub on the liners, I'm good.
On a side note:
It amazes me how Victorinox produces such repeatable quality for how many knives they make yearly. Insane.
 
coffeecup said:
It is always nice to see perfectly-centered blades on customs, but I see that as a sign of attention to detail, much like clocked screws on a fine shotgun. As long as they function OK, I don't care if a production folder has blades that aren't centered, any more than I care if a production pistol has clocked screws.
Click to expand...
I like this analogy too. I love the extra care in clocked screws, but I don't care if a production pistol has them.

I did however clock all the screw in the light switches and outlet covers in our home when I put them back on after we painted this winter. Is that weird?
 
Man, I love this. I do that, too, and never realized there was an official term...clocked screws.

But back to our sheep. As for centered blades, John's (jc57's) post was enlightening for me -- good explanation. I understand and respect the fact that the traditional pocketknives we love so much are very hard to make. You can't just stamp 'em out. That's why companies like GEC that do them well have such rabid fans.

But for me, the beauty of these knives is in the details.

The closer the piece is to "perfect" when it's new (smelling like the factory in its wax paper), the more pleasure I get out of it. For me, there is a direct connection between initial quality and the long-term pleasure I get from the knife. The dings, the scratches, the scuffs...I'll put those on the knife myself, and I'll look fondly back on them as reminders of the journeys I've taken with the knife. Battle scars. Like patina, buttery stag, or the way the steering wheel on a faithful old pickup gets worn smooth over the years.

But the sweeter, smoother, and straighter the knife is in the beginning, the more often I'll pull it out to admire it and the more likely I'll be to use it. The details are what give me faith that the knife is built to last.

So keep 'em centered, I say. Certain hallmarks of quality shouldn't cost more than $100.

-- Mikel.
 
Blade centering, IMHO, is a mark of craftsmanship. Like flush springs, proper walk and talk, proper kicks, correctly set shields and pins and clean joints, even grind lines and proper final edging. Signs that the knives have been properly cutlered, not haphazardly assembled. Attention to these details does not require a huge added expense in manufacturing. It requires properly trained employees, good quality control inspectors and management/owners who set high standards of craftsmanship.

I am not a cutler and have never worked in a cutlery. However I have spoken at length with experienced well respected cutlers from several companies past and present and to a man (and woman) they agree with my take on quality control. A pretty knife is still a reject if it is flawed in detail or function. I have read that Michael Mirando, one of the founders of Imperial, would pick up a board of knives each morning from the factory production line and take them to his office, to emerge a short time later, throw them on the floor and berate the workers for producing less than acceptable knives. He demanded high quality in fit and finish and function even in the low price point knives produced by Imperial.

Some of the very knife companies surviving today, which used to have knives produced for them by "The quiet giant", Camillus, as well as Imperial or Schrade, would reject knives they received from them if they showed the flaws mentioned, even off centered blades that did not rub or clash. That this has now become common to those same companies with their own production, and to a point accepted by their customers as "normal" speaks volumes to me. And to the cutlers with whom I have spoken about these issues. A general lowering of industry standards of quality and the public's acceptance of lower standards of quality. One is misinformed if they blame it on labor costs as labor is the smallest portion of expenses in a properly cutlered knife.

Just an old Codger's opinion. :)
 
Codger_64 said:
Blade centering, IMHO, is a mark of craftsmanship. Like flush springs, proper walk and talk, proper kicks, correctly set shields and pins and clean joints, even grind lines and proper final edging. Signs that the knives have been properly cutlered, not haphazardly assembled. Attention to these details does not require a huge added expense in manufacturing. It requires properly trained employees, good quality control inspectors and management/owners who set high standards of craftsmanship.
Click to expand...

I agree, but haven't had much luck getting all of those details from the current US factories. Rather than deal with the headache and hassles of returns, I've lowered my standards and picked my battles. I'll accept a functional-but-not-centered blade, a knife that requires sharpening, or both, in a knife I intend to use.

More likely though, I'll spend the money on an older knife from a quality maker, knowing that--unless excessively worn or abused--it is more likely to have all of those marks of craftsmanship. (Well, except the final edge, but since I'm going to have to sharpen the knife anyhow I prefer one that was made right to begin with.)
 
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