Blade Grind

Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
464
What makes a custom maker's blade grind better than a production blade grind? I can see that the grind lines on a production knife are often sloppy and not straight or even pointing in the wrong direction. I have had several Benchmade CQC7's and have seen a variety of different interpretations onthe original design in the ones I've owned and my brother's Strykers have different geometries too. Does the custom maker make the blade stronger through treatment not done to production knives or are there grinds structurally any stronger.
This is not a post about how production knives are as good as custom knives because I highly appreciate my custom knives. I'm just curious how a custom maker can make a knife perform better by hand grinding it.

JAson
 
Hi Jason,

The answer is quite simple. Most of the large factory knife companies have a machine that grinds both sides of the blade at the same time. This process takes approximately 5 seconds. No I am not joking.

Business lesson here!!! Factory knvies are made to make a profit to keep the factory working. Thats it. This is not an inditment
on factory knives. It is a business that produces a product to fill a need. If this company does not produce a certain amount of knives at a certain cost they go bankrupt simple as that.

This is why the great knife factories such as the ones that were found in Sheffield England no longer exsist. It is no longer cost effective to have human beings working at the factories. There are some still working at the factories, but the numbers decline slowly.

Custom Knives are ground one at a time by a trained craftsman. The level of that persons ability is directly proportional to the quality of the grind. This is why some makers get more money than others, they are better grinders.

Does a straighter grind make the blade stronger. However, like it or not, custom makers use a better quality of steel, the heat treating is better (most makers do it in house and usually do only 1 or 2 knives a time), consequently the quality control is better. This is what makes the blade better, better steel, better heat treating, better quality control.

This is part of the reason factory knives cost what they cost and custom knives cost what they cost.

You get what you pay for.


------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 
Actually, I'm going to be a little bit contrary here. Big surprise, huh? ;-)
Since getting back into collecting and making custom knives, one thing I can say is that I don't see many makers doing a better job than the production companies when it comes to getting more than one knife of the same design to come out with a completely even, and identical blade grind.

S**t happens. If you are grinding a blade by hand, and don't have your blades lazer blanked or otherwise cutout beforehand to identical specs, the grind will be similar, but quite often each knife will have its own quirks. Not mistakes, but subtle, and sometimes not so subtle differences.
That being said, I'm not looking for a custom maker to turn out cookie cutter perfect copies. I'm looking for something unique in each knife, and as long as the overall quality is there, I'm not going to be torqued off when I find these small differences.
Jason mentioned that he has found Benchmade Elishewitz Strikers that aren't ground alike? Look at a number of custom Shadows made over the years by Allen Elishewitz. In the same model many have radially different tip size and angles. The grind lines match, but each knife has its own personality.

And just because a custom knife isn't perfect doesn't mean that it doesnt' still work better. One thing a custom maker can, and will do, is continuously change their product to try and make it more efficient. You can't say the same of a production knife. One the design is set, its pretty much locked in for thousands of copies, since its too expensive to change the tooling. The custom makers 'toolings' to a large extent is his hands, and eyeballs, and feedback from his own experience and that of customers.
The trick sometimes is finding a maker that agrees with you in what you prefer in a blade. Some only do hollow grinds, or chisel grinds, or only want to grind a flat grind just so high, or so thin. If so, they're not the person to go to if you have an idea you want to try that runs contrary to their style. Fair enough, find someone else that will.

I also hope that when I buy a custom knife its going to be one that has a superior heat treatment. But, its a bit of a generalization to say that all, or even most custom makers do their own heat treating. Quite a few makers, especially those who specialize in stainless blades, and do small quantities, use a custom heat treating shop to do that part of the process. Paul Bos out in california heat treats blades for many makers, and the quality, if anything, is better than you could attain in your own shop, in part because they have vacuum furnaces, and cryogenic treatment equipment, and digital controls, etc. that most makes could not afford for thier own shop.
I make no bones about the fact that I have tool steel blades heat treated at a facility that specializes in tool steel heat treatment, and does literally tons every week for commercial industry, and stays in business because they can do it to standards more exacting than even my own, and my customers. If that's the route I need to go to keep quality up, so be it. The bottom line is turning out that final product so that it is a combination of the best of your skills and materials, and the whatever else it takes to make it right.

madpoet

------------------

 
I agree with Madpoet. The uniqueness of handmade knives is one of the things that make them special. In this age of mass production I like having something that reflects the personality and state of mind of the maker at the time it was made.

On the other hand I use water jet cutting to blank my blades and professional heat treaters to harden and temper them too. Why? Because heat treating is crucial and the equipement to get that right cost too much to buy. And blanking the blades gives me more design freedom.

------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com



 
You are both correct not all makers heat treat their blades. There are currently over 4,000 custom knife makers out there. They range from the hobbiest to the full time world class maker.

The majority of the makers you read about in the magazines or those who have become "house hold" names. Are full time makers and most do their own heat treating.

But there are indviduals such as Paul Bos do exceptional work when it comes to heat treating.

Lets remember the original post was "does a custom makers grind lines make the blade better. I was pointing out that its not the grind lines, its the materials and heat treating.

Concerning grind lines, there almost always are mistakes on the blade. This is primarily because each of us has a dominate side. You can almost always tell looking at the blade if the maker is right or left handed.

For many the reason we carry custom knives has, in large part, to do with pride in ownership. I enjoy getting knives from makers, meeting them and in many cases developing lasting friendships with them. This not something that generally occurs with a factory.

Well Ill stop myself since I am getting off the subject of the thread.



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 
One detail: even if the finished product LOOKS the same, if the custom guy went slow and didn't heat the steel versus the production piece being cranked out in seconds, that's going to affect final heat-treat on the high tech stainlesses!

This is *definately* true of ATS34 and 440C, it may also apply to BG42 and the CPM 440/420 series. High tech stainlesses are "one shot only" propositions in the heat treat department - cook that steel at the grinder and sorry dude, your one shot at doing it right just got used up.

THAT, to me, is why handmade is desirable.

Jim March
 
Uh, Jim,
I hate to disagree here, but what corner of left field did you pull that out of?
Yes, you only have one chance to heat treat some of the 'high tech' stainless steels. You can't just pop it back in the oven if you get it too soft while tempering it.
That is, unless you anneal the steel all over again, stress relieve it, and go through the heat treat and tempering process all over again. You can't just dump it back in the oven if you screw up, but if you go through the extra steps, you can start over again.
Some steels like O-1 you can keep heat treating over and over again without annealing. Its just that forgiving.

Another issue is heating the steel while grinding. One thing you miss in the equation is that to transform ATS-34 or 440C to the state that it has the potential to harden, you have to heat it to approximately 1,850 to 1,900 degrees F. That is hotter, by a whole bunch of degrees, than you can get steel by grinding it.

I happen to remember an old article in Blade or Knives Illustrated on Bob Engnath's Blades & Stuff operation. Right in the middle of the article was a picture of Bob himself, virtually turning a piece of (what probably was 440C) stainless steel red hot by the amount of pressure he put on the steel while grinding it. He was known to use heavy welders gloves and push sticks to hold the blades in place so he could hold on with such high temperatures. Seems to me like he sold tens of thousands of those blades, and nobody I ever heard of complained that he ruined them?

madpoet


 
There are some makers who do amazingly symetrical grinds, and there are some who don't. I think that most high-end production knives are at least equivalent to the average "handmade" knife in that regard.

I remember when I first got into knives in a big way a few years ago, I had done some of my own edge holding comparisons between production ATS-34 blades and "custom" ATS-34 blades, and was not overwhelmed with the results. It seemed to me that my $40 Zytel handled ATS-34 folder was holding an edge better than my $350 custom ATS-34 folder. So I set out to find out what the differences in heat treating were. I went to shows and asked every maker about their heat treatment of ATS-34. It was surprising to me how many of them sent their blades out for heat treatment, and didn't know many details of how it was done. Almost none did the optimum heat treatment, including cryo and multiple tempers. I have owned about a half dozen "custom" folders with ATS-34 blades, and none of them held an edge better than my $40 Benchmade Ascent. I didn't even find the equal until I got a blade from Ernest Mayer of Black Cloud Knives.

In my opinion, it is simply not a given that "custom" knives are better than production knives when the steel and materials used in each is the same. Custom knives generally look nicer, and are finished better, but they do not necessarily cut better. If Benchmade were to put an M-2 high speed steel blade in the 710 today, I would prefer it to any other working folder that I have seen at any price. That is based on the edge character of the steel, the reliability of the lock, and my own personal preference for blade and handle shape. My other two "best" folders, are the Sebenza and the Wood/Irie Model B for the same reasons mentioned above. Barry and Mike have the handles cast and use a lot of machinery in putting their knives together, so are they custom, or even hand made? I don't know. Sounds like my three favs are a production knife, and two limit-production knives to me.

I don't mean to belittle the work done by makers like Pease, or Boze, or Fisk, or ...
The level of finish they achieve is other-worldly. But by at least one knife buyer's criteria, they are not necessarily better than production or limited-production knives.

Harv
 
Back
Top