Blade Material Question and Liner Purpose? Nubie Question

OK Slow down,
Welcome to Bladeforums. Thank you for filling in your location on your profile, there may be someone local to you who can help. You have stepped into a world of complications starting out with a saw blade made of unknown alloy steel, any heat treat advice you get will be at best a guess based on what people think the blade might have been made out of. With your level of knowledge and experience, you really should start out with a bar of 1084 if you want to do your own heat treat, or a piece of air hardening steel if you will be sending it out, both of which you can get from Aldo at http://www.njsteelbaron.com once you anneal your saw blade you have a crapshoot trying to heat treat it (see my earlier comment), if you read the stickies, once you have waded through the dead links and read the good ones, particularly the ones written or referenced by Kevin R. Cashen, you will have a better frame of reference.

The Count will likely post his standard reply to newbies, it has a lot of good info

you should be able to grind the saw blade with your belt sander, take off any platic gaurds, clean all sawdust out, and keep a fire extinguisher and a bucket of water handy

-Page
 
Also, a fire pit as a heat source is not the best idea. Burning osage orange and using barrel planks as handle material strikes me as bass-ackwards.
 
From Tennessee said:
What purpose do the liners serve? Are they primarily trim or are they functional?
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I'm pretty sure they are just for looks, at least 99.9% of the time. I've never heard of a functional purpose. Well yes, I used liners once when I felt the scales were too thin by themselves. The liners "bulked up" the handle a bit. General consensus is to not use the vulcanized liner material that every knife making supplier sells.

- Paul Meske
 
lonepine said:
I'm pretty sure they are just for looks, at least 99.9% of the time. I've never heard of a functional purpose. Well yes, I used liners once when I felt the scales were too thin by themselves. The liners "bulked up" the handle a bit. General consensus is to not use the vulcanized liner material that every knife making supplier sells.

- Paul Meske
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I've only used the vulcanized liner material once.. and it didn't end well. It looked nice at first, but moisture seemed to creep in and ruin it. This may be an isolated event.. but there are better materials I believe.
 
Liners are primarily decorative. "Like a little lipstick on a pretty girl," according to Bob Loveless. In some cases they may help with fit, sort of like a gasket helps seal up any imperfections between two mating surfaces. But it's best to avoid those imperfections in the first place and use liners to add a bit of color and contrast.

"vulcanized fiber" liner material should be outlawed, or at least never used on a knife that will spend any time outside a perfectly-controlled environment. It will shrink, swell and generally make you miserable, even months after being installed. Alpha Knife Supply sells G10 and micarta (both are extremely stable) in many colors and thicknesses that are suitable for liners and spacers. :thumbup:
 
Thanks for the feedback. My thoughts were that they were probably cosmetic and the possibility as Lonepipe said to bulk up if the need were to arise. I'm making my first knife and maybe got the cart in front of the horse on it (another story) and plan on using some .030" copper sheet as a liner. I plan to epoxy the liner to the tang then the handles (scales) to the copper. Thanks again.
 
Do it the other way around. Generally you shape the front of the handle material BEFORE putting it on the knife so you don't damage the blade during the shaping process. Most folks essentially finish that portion of the handle before putting things together.

Bond the copper to the scales, then shape the front, attach. Somewhere in there you drill any holes needed of course. I generally leave excess above and below the tang but finish the face. All holes are drilled while everything is flat.

Obviously there are other methods, but that's mine. I'm sure there are specific situations where you'd attach the liner material to the tang then add handle material, but short of the asian style wrapped handles I can't think of one.
 
Remyrw said:
Do it the other way around. Generally you shape the front of the handle material BEFORE putting it on the knife so you don't damage the blade during the shaping process. Most folks essentially finish that portion of the handle before putting things together.

Bond the copper to the scales, then shape the front, attach.
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Thanks for that reminder! I was aware of the need to do the front of the scales first and overlooked the need to include the liner also. Didn't even enter my mind. Saved me good. Thanks

Ive got it drilled and have made my pins. Right now I'm getting ready to do the bevels on the blade. I mentioned I got the cart in front of the horse as Sunshadow graciously pointed out with my blade material. I selected an old chrome circular saw blade for my blade and now have learned I might have some issues hardening it. It actually skips a file right off so I annealed the tang with my torch and drilled it but haven't messed with the cutting edge of the blank yet. Im thinking I can use my belt sander to add the edge if I don't get it too hot (I got a plan) the current hardness won't be affected too much (maybe) then I can see how well it holds an edge doing that before I add the scales.

A quick question for my next one I will use some 1084 as suggested. Can it be draw filed without annealing? I got pretty good at doing gun barrels when removing heavy pitting before slow rust bluing and would rather draw file the bevel roughly rather than grinding or sanding it then sand and polish. I should be able to drill the tang also without annealing, is the 1084 machinable without annealing?

The heat treating part I'm working on hopefully do it myself (I think) and would leave enough material to polish the bevel and balance of the blade after heat treat. Then I should be ready to add the scales. I wonder where the term "scales" originated?
 
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Remy is absolutely right, build up each handle scale as a unit.

From Tennessee said:
A quick question for my next one I will use some 1084 as suggested. Can it be draw filed without annealing? I got pretty good at doing gun barrels when removing heavy pitting before slow rust bluing and would rather draw file the bevel rather than grinding or sanding it. I should be able to drill the tang also without annealing, is the 1084 machinable without anneal, drilling and filing???
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Yes, and yes. Aldo's 1084 is a great alloy and works very nicely as he sends it. It is annealed and not difficult to grind, file or drill.

Draw-filing is an excellent way to set bevels and keep them flat. Although I do most of my stock-removal on a belt-grinder, I often draw-file to check for flatness and accuracy. Since you have experience with the technique, I say go for it.
 
From Tennessee said:
(I)...plan on using some .030" copper sheet as a liner. I plan to epoxy the liner to the tang then the handles (scales) to the copper.
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This is probably not an issue but I thought I should ask the question. When two different metals come in contact, eg. copper and iron, isn't there something about this that promotes corrosion? There will be a layer of epoxy between them and maybe that is enough insulation to prevent the process that I can't think of the name of. I'm hoping someone will know what the heck I'm talking about.

- Paul Meske
 
I ran into that very problem a few years back aboard my boat. Some of the rigging was stainless and some brass & same with some of the fasteners. I mistakenly or unknowingly allowed 2 dissimilar metals to come in contact with some mahogany trim and the wood around the fastener started to deteriorate. If I recall and its been more than a few years more like 30 I had used a stainless screw run threw a brass washer. I had read about that even before I actually made the mistake and it sure as heck caused a problem and a tough one to repair cosmetically. Now I've got to rethink this. Good point about about the epoxy and maybe since this knife is going to be somewhat of a trial and error project I could go ahead as planned leaving one pin of the 3 ( I made them out of brass and now we have 3 different materials) in direct contact with both the steel and copper. Wow damn thing will probably explode. :confused:I can't think of the name either but there sure is one. Thanks for bringing that up (when I saw what happened on the boat I thought I'd cry). You guys are sure saving my bacon. ;)
 
If you want I can send you some 1084 to try out. people have done the same for me more than once.
 
I believe you are talking about galvanic corrosion, we run into that offshore on our platforms all of the time, especially on the electrical systems.
 
thegeek574 said:
If you want I can send you some 1084 to try out. people have done the same for me more than once.
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Well mr. Geek if you allow me to pay you the shipping. Its a long ways from Tn to Or. Ive sent you an email with an address. I'll be sure to pass it on. Thanks a million
 
you would think it would have shown up with some knife making with the bolsters and pins I think generally different than the blade material? It might be more of an issue on water craft/oil rigs would probably qualify as a water craft. I know I would have to maintain a zinc piece on the propeller shaft that was for the purpose of like being a target for a reaction to prevent some types of corrosion on the boat primarily to protect the brass prop. The zinc is attached and in about a year it would have to be replaced as the corrosive "attractant" effect would literally dissolve it and it starts out about the size of a tennis ball and comes in two halves and is attached around the shaft and fastened. I used to be on top of that boat stuff and it sure was an issue not to be overlooked in annual maintenance. I know you can't use copper wire and aluminum fasteners on recepticles for the very reason it will cause a corrosive reaction and a short burning down the house and the house isn't floating. Interesting though. I wonder why its never been an issue on knives!
 
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I believe it has something to do with there being an electrical charge present. It has been quite a while since I was learning the theory of galvanic corrosion. I know on offshore platforms there is definitely an electrical component, as all of our equipment is grounded to the structural steel. Aluminum rigid conduit turns to pure aluminum oxide in a matter of years when exposed to the conditions off shore and will frequently be eaten in half at either carbon steel or stainless u-bolt connections, it will also rot from the inside out and snap at threaded connections. As to why it doesnt happen on knives, I believe that it is not an issue as there is no way for an electrical current to be generated in the knife itself.
 
From Tennessee:

So, is your knife going to me manual or battery operated? Do you plan to stick it into wall outlets? It seems like it's probably a non-issue.

- Paul Meske
 
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