Blade Shapes

[micko]

Hello Everyone,
Since I'm new to this game, I hope you don't mind if I ask some elementary questions.
I was wondering about blade shapes. Are there industry standard shapes?
Is there anything along the lines of usable patterns or templates to outline a knife shape, and perhaps giving the suggested stock size of material to start out with in order to acheive that particular shape?
I guess if I knew what the end shape was to be before I started, I'd be able to better determine the stock size of material I'd have to start out with.
I know that sheet metal workers have a blue ink that they paint onto the metal. From there they can scribe centerlines,etc. for use in bending, drilling holes etc. Would this work the same with doing a knife? You hammer out your blank, you use the blue ink (forgot the official name of the stuff) on it, and by overlaying your template or pattern, you can scribe an outline of the shape to be used in grinding the finished blade shape. If I'm heading in the right direction with my questions, then my final question is going to be what are these patterns or templates really called, where do you get them, etc.
Then again it may be as simple as beating a piece of steel until it looks wide and thin enough for a knife, and you take a pencil and just conjure up some freehand outline that resembles a blade shape!
Once the blade shape has been determined, is there some kind of magic proportional formula one uses to determine the proper size and length handle based on the blade size and shape?
Thank you for your time and consideration to my questions.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

You asked about ten different questions.Many have the same answer.Read a few good books on knifemaking and you will find many of them answered.Do some searches on this forum and you will see that several of these topics are regulars (the search engine is currently down).Now for some brief answers.The only rule is that a knife should have a pointy end and a holdy end,with some sort of a sharpy area between the twf course this rule is regularly broken,but makes a good guideline.Dy chem (the blue spray) is a good layout material.Most just use a sharpie marker on clean steel.Download The Lloyd Harding Collection of knife shapes and designs and you will have a couple of years worth of ideas.(This is a must do thing). The patterns and templates are called patterns and templates.The outline of the knife (either template,or drawn on the steel) is called the profile.Hope this helps some.
Stacy

 

[Ilovetoolsteel]

Hello Everyone,
Since I'm new to this game, I hope you don't mind if I ask some elementary questions.
I was wondering about blade shapes. Are there industry standard shapes?

Sort of, Everybody varies them to their own tastes

There are, but by no means limited to, Clip point, spear point, drop point, trailing point. Then there are bowies skinners, sheepsfoot, daggers. etc etc etc.

Is there anything along the lines of usable patterns or templates to outline a knife shape, and perhaps giving the suggested stock size of material to start out with in order to acheive that particular shape?

The late Bob Engnath's family has posted the blade patterns from his catalog on a website.

I guess if I knew what the end shape was to be before I started, I'd be able to better determine the stock size of material I'd have to start out with.
I know that sheet metal workers have a blue ink that they paint onto the metal. From there they can scribe centerlines,etc.

Dykem, It comes in about 6 colors now. If you are going to cut your blade profile with a bandsaw this works good. If you are going to grind your profile with a grinder or belt sander this doesn't work good. I use it for layout on steel, brass and nickle handguards. It will save your eyes much strain.

for use in bending, drilling holes etc. Would this work the same with doing a knife? You hammer out your blank, you use the blue ink (forgot the official name of the stuff) on it, and by overlaying your template or pattern, you can scribe an outline of the shape to be used in grinding the finished blade shape. If I'm heading in the right direction with my questions, then my final question is going to be what are these patterns or templates really called, where do you get them, etc.

I will draw up a design and xerox it larger and smaller. I cut out the paper drawing and glue it on to some 3/16" plastic, (paper based micarta) I got real cheap, I grind to the lines of the drawing and then I try it out to see if it's comfortable to hold. If it's good, I use that to scribe the pattern on some steel and cut it out and grind the bevels.

Then again it may be as simple as beating a piece of steel until it looks wide and thin enough for a knife, and you take a pencil and just conjure up some freehand outline that resembles a blade shape!
Once the blade shape has been determined, is there some kind of magic proportional formula one uses to determine the proper size and length handle based on the blade size and shape?

The largest you will want your handle to be is about 5", 4.75" works good on medium to large blades.

A good rule of thumb, (but not exclusive) for thickness is if the blade is about 4" or longer and about 3/4" or wider use 3/16 steel, smaller, use 1/8" steel. Longer than 5.5" and wider than 1.25" use 1/4" steel

Thank you for your time and consideration to my questions.

 

[micko]

Ilovetoolsteel, Thank you for your time and reply. I'll look into the references you mentioned for sure.
Bladsmth, sorry to have troubled you with my 10 questions. I guess my enthusiasm into this new venture just got a little out of hand is all.

 

[brash]

is there some kind of magic proportional formula

You can always try to design things with the golden ratio in mind (aka golden ratio, golden proportion, divine proportion, etc.). Run a google search for more information and pictures and whatnot.

 

[Reg ELLERY]

If you want a set of free templates and a history of Lloyd Harding the Australian Knife maker there are a couple of site that list it all.

Unfortunatley I lost my hard drive a month ago and lost all the sites details.
The only one I can remember is will Hurley this post may get some other blokes tell you they have the images listed also.

The templates were scanned actual size by me and given out on a cd. a number of the generous guys here hosted them on their sites for free down loading to anyone. Lloyd died in 2003 his son was keen to see his work benifit others.

If you search the archieves looking for threads on LLoyd Harding they will probably be listed in there. They start at his early work and go intil his final piece. A lot of finished photos are missing from the early years before digital
cameras. A lot of the larger knives were designed by gary wood a customer of LLoyd.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Websters definition; Knife= a sharpened blade with a handle. That gives you a fairly broad spectrum in which to design. If you were to go to a library and look at some of the publications on arms and armor, older edged weapons and the like, you would see there is no limit to what can be called a blade shape.
To me, it is more exciting to discover, on your own, what works and what doesn't work as a blade shape. We do not need more people making Bob Loveless style knives. We need people making their own discoveries and making their own assesments as to what is or is not a knife. "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" Jams, Fred

 

[miden]

Hi Micko,

I am a newbie myself so I do not have much to add to what Ilovetoolsteel and the other guys have said. I do feel your pain though, it is like a minefield when you get started.
What I can add though is the link to the late, great Bob Engnath's site. A very unselfish man who clearly loved knifemaking and people.

http://www.engnath.com/public/intable.htm

You will find the designs that Ilovetoolsteel mentioned on the page with the books, roll your cursor over the books and the titles will appear. Click on the one that says"The Drawings". On the new page that opens you will see a menu on the left and the different styles of knife designs are under their headings there.
Also read through "the Manual". I think you will find the beginning sort of addresses you directly, just as it did me.

Do not be afraid to think "outside the box" either. Just do it.
Hope this is of some help.

Good luck.:thumbup:

Mike