Blade Steel Defect or Sharpening Gone Wrong?

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ProductionKnives

Joined
Sep 29, 2012
Messages
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I am a long time seller of production knives.

I always do my best to keep my customers happy. If there is a defect with a knife, or if a customer just changes their mind - we will take it back and exchange or refund.

If the knife is unused with all packaging, we take it back for any reason. If the knife has a defect we will exchange within 30 days.

Recently I had a customer that purchased a CRKT knife and emailed us the following.

I purchased a Columbia River The Natural 2 Knife with Bone Handle.
There appears to be a defect in the blade metal. It scratched real bad when I tried to sharpen it, and lines that look like tiger stripes appeared on the blade. I have attached a picture for you to view. I am a semi-pro knife sharpener, and have people bring me their knives to sharpen for them, so I am positive that I did not cause this problem.
I am not happy with the knife, and would rather have a refund than a replacement, unless there are other knives in the same price range that I can choose from. I am a knife collector.

crkt.jpg


So - I can tell what the guy did. But to be sure, I give him a call to talk about it. He said when he got the knife there were no scratches. He then took the brand new knife to a diamond flat stone "because he likes to get his knives real sharp". When he was done he noticed all the scratches.

I explained to him that he was hitting the side of the blade on the diamond stone - and that is what scratched the blade.

He replied that yes - he did put the diagonal scratches in the blade with the stone - but not the vertical "Tiger stripe" scratches. They just appeared after he finished sharpening the knife. He would not have drawn the blade in a straight direction. And that there was a defect in the steel - and he would like to send it back for a refund.

I explained that scratching the blade during sharpening was not a defect. The knife was not returnable because it was scratched due to sharpening. The manufacturer isn’t going to take a knife back because a person scratched it while sharpening. And I can’t resell it. I offered to buff out the blade if he would like.

He was very upset insisting that there was a defect in the blade steel that caused the scratches to appear AFTER it was sharpened.

Any opinions on my analysis? Does anyone see any other cause of the scratches? I hate to say no to a customer - and will always give them the benefit of the doubt. I just didn’t see any doubt in this one.
 
Looks like a defect from the factory.

Before I had to pack away my equipment, I tried my hand at some stock removal. Some times, heat treatment causes, well, ripples, in the metal.

These ripples are not a defect. But if the knife is not ground flat on the first pass, those ripples become harder and harder to remove.

If somebody rushed the grind on that blade, maybe it was near quittin' time on a Friday, they could have gone unnoticed until exposed to a very flat surface, like a diamond stone. Then, they showed up as these tiny high spots that got ground down first.
 
I don't know but I think the manufacture would be able to say definitively. As a "customer" I would except from the retailer that they contacted the manufacture and whatever the determination was.

I think that would be going above and beyond on your part and your conscious would be clear that you did all you could reasonably do.

Also, when I've gotten knives with what I know or think have defects I send them back to the manufacture. I don't blame the retailer when the defect isn't obvious or doesn't stand out. The manufacture is in a better position to replace the knife then a small shop. That of course is if the problem isn't obvious. In this case I don't think it would have been.
 
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Those are remnant machining marks from the initial grinding of the blade. Not a defect to me given CRKT's usual tolerances, as it's within their usual allowance for spec. HOWEVER I'm pretty sure that CRKT would take that back in a heartbeat if you write them about it. Their customer service department is superb.
 
Shorttime - I understand what you're saying about the possibility of ripples that would be so slight - that they were unnoticeable when he received the knife. He then took the knife and sharpened it on a flat stone. His angle was way off - and that is why he scratched the heck out of the blade (the diagonal scratches). His blade was so flat to the stone that he touched the top of these ripples removing the satin finish causing the vertical scratches.

It's tough when a customer does a hack job sharpening a knife, and says - yes - I caused the diagonal scratches - but not the vertical ones. I was confused by the vertical scratches as well - but I just thought that it was his drawing the knife back towards himself on the stone. I really didn't think too hard about the different types of scratches once he said - yes he did cause the diagonal ones.

For every one guy that can really sharpen - there are 10 hacks. More than once I've sold a knife - only to see the customer take it out of the box right in the store and run it through a carbide V hand sharpener display I have on the counter. It's like slow motion..."NOOOOOO" as I try to catch them before they do it. And it's usually expensive one like a Benchmade.

If the blade was scratched - but the handle scale fell off - I would have taken it back without an issue. The defect would be clear.

Flat diamond stones are a bad idea for anyone without a true feel for angle. A Spyderco Sharpmaker with ultra-fine stones would have been harmless.

Storttime - any idea how common these ripples are? Do you think they go mostly unnoticed. Maybe just a freak coincidence with the ripples and the sharpening of the knife with the blade near flat to the stone. Bad sharpening exposed the ripples.
 
ProductionKnives said:
I am not happy with the knife, and would rather have a refund than a replacement, unless there are other knives in the same price range that I can choose from. I am a knife collector.
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That is the whole issue right there, PK. It's called buyer's remorse. He's scratched the heck out of the blade, realized he can't sharpen it properly and wants a refund on it. His scratching the blade revealed a defect, but if he were truly worried about the defect, he would contact the manufacturer for a replacement. I fail to see how his buyer's remorse is your problem.
 
ProductionKnives said:
It scratched real bad when I tried to sharpen it, and lines that look like tiger stripes appeared on the blade. I have attached a picture for you to view. I am a semi-pro knife sharpener, and have people bring me their knives to sharpen for them, so I am positive that I did not cause this problem.
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This is completely contradictory "it scratched real bad when I tried to sharpen it" then "I did not cause this problem" clearly he caused the problem when he tried to sharpen it. If he's a semi-pro knife sharpener then I'm Hattori Hanzo.
 
pbcg - when I get an email from a customer about a defect- I hope there is a defect. Being a small shop doesn't make me less willing to take a return for a defective item. I want to sell for less than people can get it elsewhere and still give great service. Replacing a defective knife is easy. Replacing a non-defective knife that is unused is easy. When I saw a knife blade that was scratched horribly due to sharpening - I didn't want to say I can't help you with this. But it looked like it was completely a result of sharpening.

I had a guy that recently said his Case XX knife with CV blades he purchased a month before was defective because it rusted. When I looked at it - the entire knife - blades, bolsters, and shield were discolored, stained, and rusted. Not a defect.

Once we sold a Damascus blade Case XX knife and the customer said the blade rusted a few weeks after he got in. I took a picture, emailed it to Case, and asked their opinion. They said that they apply a finish to the Damascus to keep it from rusting - and it may not have been properly applied. Great. Took it back. Gave the guy another one. Customer is happy.
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
Those are remnant machining marks from the initial grinding of the blade. Not a defect to me given CRKT's usual tolerances, as it's within their usual allowance for spec. HOWEVER I'm pretty sure that CRKT would take that back in a heartbeat if you write them about it. Their customer service department is superb.
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:thumbup: I agree with 42Blades. You're going above & beyond...

By experienced, I made almost exact type of vertical-scratches when using a dmt duo-sharp (poka dot) diamondstone - stone surface has alternate low/hi length-wise stripes. I am guessing that, a low bevel angle strokes but didn't lift the handle for the tip until it's too late. If this is the case, you can use a jewel loupe to confirm that those vertical-scratches are lower (dip-down) than the un-scratch areas.

Having said that. I am glad you treat the customer right, even it means sometime eat your cost. Not this time, just mirror the saber grind + mirror convex bevel, sell it for more $.
 
T.L. - EXACTLY. That line was an exact cut and paste from his email. I'll always take back a questionable defect vs customer damage. But when he said to me on the phone -
"The scratches appeared after I sharpened the knife."
"No scratches before I sharpened the knife"
"I caused the diagonal ones"
"The other ones I did not cause"
I'm no Judge Judy - but I didn't see how scratches could appear from anything other than the knife being scratched. And he said it wasn't scratched before he sharpened the knife.
 
I think this is an issue he should take up with the manufacterer. He received exactly what you advertised--a new crkt knife. If the customer is unhappy with the quality of knife crkt produced, then that's an issue he should address with them. I really don't think you should be responsible, since he knew what he was getting, and you delivered the product he asked for.
 
Same thing happens when you sand in one direction then sand 90 degrees rotated from the original
 
Bluntcut - I said to him - "Send it in and we will polish the blade.".
If I drive out of the dealership with a new car and side swipe a guardrail - I don't go back to the dealer and say -
"yeah - I caused those scratches - but I think there was a defect in the steel that caused the others going in the other direction. I would like my money back."
 
Sounds like you're going above and beyond to me. In his place, if I honestly thought there was a defect, I'd contact the manufacturer, not the store. And I don't think CRKT is high quality anyways. Sounds like a hack to me.
 
Each vertical ripple is made up from a diagonal scratch pattern (if you look closely). He obviously caused the ripples appearance with his diagonal scratch pattern.

As if it is really in question.:D
 
like 42B said -- those are machining marks, not a defect in the steel.
that level of finish is part of how CRKT keeps their costs down.
proper sharpening technique so your stones don't scratch up the side of the knife is the only way to avoid causing that appearance.

2 simple ways to get rid of them:
a) sand the blade down until they blend into the rest of the grind, then polish.
b) sandblast or etch the blade to give it a uniform finish.
 
T.L. said:
This is completely contradictory "it scratched real bad when I tried to sharpen it" then "I did not cause this problem" clearly he caused the problem when he tried to sharpen it. If he's a semi-pro knife sharpener then I'm Hattori Hanzo.
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He may well be a semi-pro knife sharpener. All that means is that he know other people who are even worse at it than he is, and he does their knives for them.
 
For a 50$ knife I'd say those tiny ripples are more then acceptable. And are most likely within CRKT's tolerances.

They wouldn't even have been noticeable if he hadn't scraped the blade along the stone.

Buddy botched the sharpening job. Ruined the look of the knife and wanted his money back.

Semi pro knife sharpener. :eek::D
 
People run in to this when they improperly polish the sides on 1911's and other guns using a known flat surface instead of something that will uniformly polish the surface. Most machined things in metal aren't perfectly flat, so high spots polish first and make unusual patterns depending on where the high and low spots are. When I polished my CS Spartan to reduce corrosion, wierd lines like that formed. I just continued to polish it until it was consistent and the lines went away. I don't see why a "semi-pro" sharpener wouldn't be able to make that first bevel look nice, shiny and uniform after screwing it up.
 
ProductionKnives said:
pbcg - when I get an email from a customer about a defect- I hope there is a defect. Being a small shop doesn't make me less willing to take a return for a defective item. I want to sell for less than people can get it elsewhere and still give great service. Replacing a defective knife is easy. Replacing a non-defective knife that is unused is easy. When I saw a knife blade that was scratched horribly due to sharpening - I didn't want to say I can't help you with this. But it looked like it was completely a result of sharpening.

I had a guy that recently said his Case XX knife with chromium blades he purchased a month before was defective because it rusted. When I looked at it - the entire knife - blades, bolsters, and shield were discolored, stained, and rusted. Not a defect.

Once we sold a Damascus blade Case XX knife and the customer said the blade rusted a few weeks after he got in. I took a picture, emailed it to Case, and asked their opinion. They said that they apply a finish to the Damascus to keep it from rusting - and it may not have been properly applied. Great. Took it back. Gave the guy another one. Customer is happy.
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I think it great that you are willing to go the extra mile to make your customers happy. I'm sure you have a lot of repeat business because of it.

My point had more to do with who I would hold responsible in the case of a defect. If it leaves the factory when it shouldn't I think the manufacture should have to deal with the inconvenience of making it right. Thats just my sense of fairness.

Small shop or not I appreciate good customer service and it sounds like you go out of your way to do the right thing.

Plus, in this case I think as suggested the guy "messed up" the blade all on his own and trying to use the fall back of a defect to get a new knife or a refund. Shame on him for that but there's only so much you can or should do.

His calm to be a "semi pro sharpener" and "collector" is laughable but I was trying to be polite. More I think about it he's just trying to get over. You've already done more then you should have.
 
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