- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
Hi All,
This is an attempt to renew work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_steel. Hopefully we'll get more editors and participants this time.
Since the last thread is half dead and in many ways it went wrong, I thought may be we can start from scratch here.
Considering the multiple controversies in the original thread, I suggest we start from simplest topics, and then hopefully we can agree on more complicated issues as well and build on more complex topics.
The article on wiki is with novices in mind(at least for starters). So, highly technical info isn't really helpful for them, it should be put in simpler terms and with references to more detailed resources should the reader decide to continue his research.
Well, when necessary technical info can be part of the article, perhaps as an expansion, as in after providing easy to understand version. Larrin's format in his FAQ, which has simple definitions first and in depth explanation following it is very easy to follow and understand.
For example:
Wear resistance – Simple explanation: The ability to resist abrasive wear.
In depth: Important when slicing, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard. Wear resistance is important for edge holding in many types of knives, but less important in general when it comes to kitchen knives, because edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. If a cook uses a slicing cut and the edge is thick (compared to Japanese and other thin kitchen knives), then wear resistance is beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means it is more difficult to sharpen, so even with a knife that will benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening.
I suggest we start with the few topics that aren't controversial, at least don't seem to be:
1) Types of materials used in modern knife blades: steel, several other metal alloys (talonite, titanium) diamond, obsidian, glass, ceramics, anything else?
2) Basic steel terminology from knife blade perspective, IMHO what Larrin compiled on other forum would be great for starters: Grain Size, Carbides, Wear Resistance, Toughness, Edge Stability.
3) Effects of the common alloying elements in steel. There's several sources, I got two versions on my site too, we can compile something here.
4) As a step 1, let's just list the most common knife blade steels, including maker, and minimal relevant info. I think hardHeart was opting for that option as well.
As for the naming, for the steels with standard names we can agree to use AISI standard names for the steels that have it, (hopefully Euro knife nuts wont' take it in a wrong way) and maker's proprietary name for those that don't have it. Although, this raises an issue with the steels that have names in other standards, but have no AISI name, e.g. X50CrMoV15. It is a very popular steel in kitchen cutlery, Wusthof, Henckels, etc use it. In that case we can use DIN (German) or corresponding national standard name. Reference to the particular steel with more standard and proprietary names in steel chart can be added.
As most of the people agreed in the original thread, we avoid direct comparative statements such as steel A is better than steel B, unless specific details and conditions are provided. Although, on some steels makers themselves list it as an improvement over earlier steel. I guess that would be ok. I am assuming in the beginning that part won't be necessary.
Open issue - grouping Steels. Original article had 2 big groups, Stainless and Carbon, which is incorrect from technical point of view, but it's common even here on BF.
Alternative proposed by hardheart was to list steels by makers, which can be simpler, but I see two problems based on my experience gathering steel data for the charts, a) same steel(s) are produced by multiple manufacturers(DuraTech 20CV(Latrobe) == M390(Bohler-Uddeholm)). b) same manufacturer produces all sorts of steels as usual, stainless, low alloy, high alloy, PM, non PM etc...
I'd propose to create several groups of steels e.g. efunda has 4 major groups: Alloy Steels, Carbon Steels, Stainless Steels, Tool Steels and list relevant alloys under each category, with or without maker's name.
If you have other suggestion(s) please feel free to suggest.
Well, that's all I have for the restart.
Also, it'd help if Larrin and Joe Talamadge agreed to let us use their materials in the article.
Please remember that no single person owns the article, and let's try to limit the arguments to steels and terminology, not each other
I can contribute my time for editing and technical data regarding the steel compositions and naming.
As for the texts, my English certainly isn't up to wikipedia standards, so perhaps someone else can formulate longer texts.
This is an attempt to renew work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_steel. Hopefully we'll get more editors and participants this time.
Since the last thread is half dead and in many ways it went wrong, I thought may be we can start from scratch here.
Considering the multiple controversies in the original thread, I suggest we start from simplest topics, and then hopefully we can agree on more complicated issues as well and build on more complex topics.
The article on wiki is with novices in mind(at least for starters). So, highly technical info isn't really helpful for them, it should be put in simpler terms and with references to more detailed resources should the reader decide to continue his research.
Well, when necessary technical info can be part of the article, perhaps as an expansion, as in after providing easy to understand version. Larrin's format in his FAQ, which has simple definitions first and in depth explanation following it is very easy to follow and understand.
For example:
Wear resistance – Simple explanation: The ability to resist abrasive wear.
In depth: Important when slicing, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard. Wear resistance is important for edge holding in many types of knives, but less important in general when it comes to kitchen knives, because edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. If a cook uses a slicing cut and the edge is thick (compared to Japanese and other thin kitchen knives), then wear resistance is beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means it is more difficult to sharpen, so even with a knife that will benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening.
I suggest we start with the few topics that aren't controversial, at least don't seem to be:
1) Types of materials used in modern knife blades: steel, several other metal alloys (talonite, titanium) diamond, obsidian, glass, ceramics, anything else?
2) Basic steel terminology from knife blade perspective, IMHO what Larrin compiled on other forum would be great for starters: Grain Size, Carbides, Wear Resistance, Toughness, Edge Stability.
3) Effects of the common alloying elements in steel. There's several sources, I got two versions on my site too, we can compile something here.
4) As a step 1, let's just list the most common knife blade steels, including maker, and minimal relevant info. I think hardHeart was opting for that option as well.
As for the naming, for the steels with standard names we can agree to use AISI standard names for the steels that have it, (hopefully Euro knife nuts wont' take it in a wrong way) and maker's proprietary name for those that don't have it. Although, this raises an issue with the steels that have names in other standards, but have no AISI name, e.g. X50CrMoV15. It is a very popular steel in kitchen cutlery, Wusthof, Henckels, etc use it. In that case we can use DIN (German) or corresponding national standard name. Reference to the particular steel with more standard and proprietary names in steel chart can be added.
As most of the people agreed in the original thread, we avoid direct comparative statements such as steel A is better than steel B, unless specific details and conditions are provided. Although, on some steels makers themselves list it as an improvement over earlier steel. I guess that would be ok. I am assuming in the beginning that part won't be necessary.
Open issue - grouping Steels. Original article had 2 big groups, Stainless and Carbon, which is incorrect from technical point of view, but it's common even here on BF.
Alternative proposed by hardheart was to list steels by makers, which can be simpler, but I see two problems based on my experience gathering steel data for the charts, a) same steel(s) are produced by multiple manufacturers(DuraTech 20CV(Latrobe) == M390(Bohler-Uddeholm)). b) same manufacturer produces all sorts of steels as usual, stainless, low alloy, high alloy, PM, non PM etc...
I'd propose to create several groups of steels e.g. efunda has 4 major groups: Alloy Steels, Carbon Steels, Stainless Steels, Tool Steels and list relevant alloys under each category, with or without maker's name.
If you have other suggestion(s) please feel free to suggest.
Well, that's all I have for the restart.
Also, it'd help if Larrin and Joe Talamadge agreed to let us use their materials in the article.
Please remember that no single person owns the article, and let's try to limit the arguments to steels and terminology, not each other
I can contribute my time for editing and technical data regarding the steel compositions and naming.
As for the texts, my English certainly isn't up to wikipedia standards, so perhaps someone else can formulate longer texts.