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Blade Steel
- Thread starter Makael
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David Martin
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I've noticed companies or writers put these charts out without much data toward real cutting experiences. Or lab tests like CARTA. I have done more than one cutting test run with 3/8" sisal rope on 440C, S30V and CPM154 and found there to be little difference among them. With the first two cutting close to the same and the last steel making 100 more cuts. Still, this not a significant difference. Depending on heat treat methods they could mostly run close. Just some real world data to mull over in this subject. DM
David Martin
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jbm, that's what you get from some writers. I have both a knife with regular 420 and several with 420HC (Buck's heat treat). I have to say that
420HC gives a step up better edge.? Merely what I've noticed. Jeff Hubbard has said, "I'll take real world results over laboratory tests any day." DM
420HC gives a step up better edge.? Merely what I've noticed. Jeff Hubbard has said, "I'll take real world results over laboratory tests any day." DM
Hickory n steel
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But what company treated each of these steels ?
Knowing what a steel is means nothing if you don't know what company treated it.
What steel does Victorinox use ? Hell I don't know, but I don't care because of their consistency and because whatever it is it works well.
That c9v0 or whatever it is may be at the top of the list, but if it wasn't heat treated properly a Buck 110 could probably cut it in half .
This whole chart is meaningless because of this.
Knowing what a steel is means nothing if you don't know what company treated it.
What steel does Victorinox use ? Hell I don't know, but I don't care because of their consistency and because whatever it is it works well.
That c9v0 or whatever it is may be at the top of the list, but if it wasn't heat treated properly a Buck 110 could probably cut it in half .
This whole chart is meaningless because of this.
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That definitely is the question. I think that's why I've been liking s30v. It seems to hold an edge and isn't bad to sharpen either. I reckon it doesn't make that much of a difference to me. I've been carrying my CS 110 with s30v more than anything else lately, but I just ordered a 500 and 302 and as we all know they have 420hc. I want my first stag Buck really bad and there are beautiful versions out there, but I think I'm going to get an elk 112 from the CS just so I can get s30v. I would rather have deer stag because I like the darker markings, but I'm going for the steel...
MT_Pokt
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That's the subjective part of any of these charts or comparisons.
If the chart is from a metallurgical theory, it could be very accurate. But there are 2 huge factors: edge geometry and hardness (heat-treat).
For a real comparison I would like to see identical slabs cut to identical blade shapes and grinds with identical edge geometry and the steel manufacturer's recommended hardness. Then a machine that can duplicate strokes to compare them side by side and provide undeniable results.
I don't see this ever happening though because largely; it just doesn't matter. Millions and millions of Bucks are purchased with what this chart depicts as the worst performing steel in this field. I imagine if you divided this graph in two and counted all knives purchased in the bottom half compared to the top half, I think you'll see where the demand lies.
The average consumer probably doesn't consider blade steel over aesthetics or ergonomics. Give them the look and feel and they don't mind the steel.
A caged animal eats only what you feed it.
If the chart is from a metallurgical theory, it could be very accurate. But there are 2 huge factors: edge geometry and hardness (heat-treat).
For a real comparison I would like to see identical slabs cut to identical blade shapes and grinds with identical edge geometry and the steel manufacturer's recommended hardness. Then a machine that can duplicate strokes to compare them side by side and provide undeniable results.
I don't see this ever happening though because largely; it just doesn't matter. Millions and millions of Bucks are purchased with what this chart depicts as the worst performing steel in this field. I imagine if you divided this graph in two and counted all knives purchased in the bottom half compared to the top half, I think you'll see where the demand lies.
The average consumer probably doesn't consider blade steel over aesthetics or ergonomics. Give them the look and feel and they don't mind the steel.
A caged animal eats only what you feed it.
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David Martin
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You need to think when looking at charts. Because writers put those in articles without parameters. Who heat treated it, what were they cutting? Even if you merely ran them all cutting on the CATRA that would be a decent test with real data. They could have merely listed these steels on elements alone. Even when gents write on this forum saying, this steel did 2 deer and that steel did 3. I take that information as a very good serious test. DM
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Makael
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This article has simplified the maze of knife steels somewhat, but don’t assume that because it’s high end instead of mid-range that it is better. Different manufacturing and treating processes even on the same steels give different outcomes.
Also as important as blade steel is, it isn’t the be all and end all. If you don’t like the handle or the shape or any other part of the knife then blade steel becomes less of a big deal. Hopefully though, you now have a much better idea of what each type of steel actually does and what sort of benefits and drawbacks each one has.
October 2, 2015
9 Comments
The Complete Guide to Knife and Tool Steels
Over the course of this blog, we’ve looked a lot of knives and everything around them, such as locking functions, blade shapes, sheaths and so on. However, this post has taken a little longer due to the sheer enormity of the subject.
Steel is arguably the most important aspect of a knife. The metal is what cuts and slices, without it or without good quality your knife will quickly blunt and become unusable.
For the purposes of this article we will break down exactly what steel is. We will then look at terms ‘jargon’ you’ll often see associated with steels. Then we will look at some of the most popular and general types of blade steel, this will be followed with some comparison graphs to show the ratings of each steel. Finally then we will round off this post looking at more specialised steels such as Damascus, and the CPM process.
There is an awful lot of really useful information to get through here so lets, get this show on the road . . .
What is Steel?
“Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon containing less than 2% carbon and 1% manganese and small amounts of silicon, phosphorus, sulphur and oxygen” (https://www.worldsteel.org/faq/about-steel.html). There is a common misconception that steel is a singular thing. Well simply it’s not. There are thousands of different steel types, many of which have been invented or developed this side of the millennium making for continually strong and lighter metals.
Does steel rust?
Yes it can. If you leave it exposed to water, oxygen and even dirt, the steel will start to become covered in an iron oxide coating. There are ways of delaying and preventing this though. Stainless steel is one example; although this can still rust it takes a lot longer due to the inclusion of Chromium. Other methods of reducing rust are blade coatings, these prevent oxygen from coming into contact with the blade and causing a reaction which sees the formation of rust.
Five Key Terms
When looking at a blade you’ll see some or all of these terms mentioned. These five terms are the fundamental characteristics you will want to look for in your blade steel:
Hardness
Some people know this as blade strength but hardness is the primary term. It essentially means that the harder the steel the less likely it is to deform/bend when stressed during use. It is generally measured using the Rockwell C scale (aka “HRC”).
Toughness
Toughness is the steels ability to resist damage like cracks or chips when being used in heavy duty applications. This also defines the steel’s ability to flex without breaking. Therefore, this is very different to hardness, and in all likelihood (not always though) increased toughness means decreased hardness. However, whereas hardness has a standardized measurement there isn’t really one for toughness so it’s much harder to measure.
Wear Resistance
Wear resistance is the steel’s ability to withstand damage from both abrasive (scratches and scrapes) and adhesive wear (rubbing of the blade upon a surface). Abrasive wear comes from softer surfaces coming in contact with rougher ones. This leads to scratches and other scrapes forming on the blade. Adhesive wear occurs when debris is dislodged from one surface and attaches to the other. Wear resistance generally correlates with the steel’s hardness but is also heavily influenced by the specific chemistry of the steel. In steels of equal hardness, the steel with larger carbides (wear resistant particles) will typically resist wear better.
Corrosion Resistance
Corrosion resistance is the ability to resist corrosion, such as rust. We’ve already briefly mentioned some of the primary culprits of corrosion, but there are more. Therefore, you should look after your knife and clean it properly (luckily there is a post for that). Unfortunately though most of the time increased corrosion resistance means decreased edge retention and quality.
Edge Retention
Edge Retention represents how long the blade will retain its sharpness while it is being used. Edge is really important to knife performance, but unfortunately much like ‘toughness’ it’s extremely hard to measure. This inaccuracy means every one disagrees as to what edge retention means, and how you decided whether it’s good or bad. The longer an edge resists being changed (deformed) the better you could say the edge retention is.
Which is best?
You tell us? People have so many preferences on what they want their knife to be able to do. Unfortunately there is no magic steel that is amazing at all five. Therefore, you have to make a decision about which is most important to you, whether is corrosion resistance or edge retention. Most people seem to struggle with the difference in hardness and toughness as some steels which are extremely hard can be easily chipped and visa versa. All steels even stainless will oxidise if left out in the air and in water, so always take that into consideration
Also as important as blade steel is, it isn’t the be all and end all. If you don’t like the handle or the shape or any other part of the knife then blade steel becomes less of a big deal. Hopefully though, you now have a much better idea of what each type of steel actually does and what sort of benefits and drawbacks each one has.
October 2, 2015
9 Comments
The Complete Guide to Knife and Tool Steels
Over the course of this blog, we’ve looked a lot of knives and everything around them, such as locking functions, blade shapes, sheaths and so on. However, this post has taken a little longer due to the sheer enormity of the subject.
Steel is arguably the most important aspect of a knife. The metal is what cuts and slices, without it or without good quality your knife will quickly blunt and become unusable.
For the purposes of this article we will break down exactly what steel is. We will then look at terms ‘jargon’ you’ll often see associated with steels. Then we will look at some of the most popular and general types of blade steel, this will be followed with some comparison graphs to show the ratings of each steel. Finally then we will round off this post looking at more specialised steels such as Damascus, and the CPM process.
There is an awful lot of really useful information to get through here so lets, get this show on the road . . .
What is Steel?
“Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon containing less than 2% carbon and 1% manganese and small amounts of silicon, phosphorus, sulphur and oxygen” (https://www.worldsteel.org/faq/about-steel.html). There is a common misconception that steel is a singular thing. Well simply it’s not. There are thousands of different steel types, many of which have been invented or developed this side of the millennium making for continually strong and lighter metals.
Does steel rust?
Yes it can. If you leave it exposed to water, oxygen and even dirt, the steel will start to become covered in an iron oxide coating. There are ways of delaying and preventing this though. Stainless steel is one example; although this can still rust it takes a lot longer due to the inclusion of Chromium. Other methods of reducing rust are blade coatings, these prevent oxygen from coming into contact with the blade and causing a reaction which sees the formation of rust.
Five Key Terms
When looking at a blade you’ll see some or all of these terms mentioned. These five terms are the fundamental characteristics you will want to look for in your blade steel:
Hardness
Some people know this as blade strength but hardness is the primary term. It essentially means that the harder the steel the less likely it is to deform/bend when stressed during use. It is generally measured using the Rockwell C scale (aka “HRC”).
Toughness
Toughness is the steels ability to resist damage like cracks or chips when being used in heavy duty applications. This also defines the steel’s ability to flex without breaking. Therefore, this is very different to hardness, and in all likelihood (not always though) increased toughness means decreased hardness. However, whereas hardness has a standardized measurement there isn’t really one for toughness so it’s much harder to measure.
Wear Resistance
Wear resistance is the steel’s ability to withstand damage from both abrasive (scratches and scrapes) and adhesive wear (rubbing of the blade upon a surface). Abrasive wear comes from softer surfaces coming in contact with rougher ones. This leads to scratches and other scrapes forming on the blade. Adhesive wear occurs when debris is dislodged from one surface and attaches to the other. Wear resistance generally correlates with the steel’s hardness but is also heavily influenced by the specific chemistry of the steel. In steels of equal hardness, the steel with larger carbides (wear resistant particles) will typically resist wear better.
Corrosion Resistance
Corrosion resistance is the ability to resist corrosion, such as rust. We’ve already briefly mentioned some of the primary culprits of corrosion, but there are more. Therefore, you should look after your knife and clean it properly (luckily there is a post for that). Unfortunately though most of the time increased corrosion resistance means decreased edge retention and quality.
Edge Retention
Edge Retention represents how long the blade will retain its sharpness while it is being used. Edge is really important to knife performance, but unfortunately much like ‘toughness’ it’s extremely hard to measure. This inaccuracy means every one disagrees as to what edge retention means, and how you decided whether it’s good or bad. The longer an edge resists being changed (deformed) the better you could say the edge retention is.
Which is best?
You tell us? People have so many preferences on what they want their knife to be able to do. Unfortunately there is no magic steel that is amazing at all five. Therefore, you have to make a decision about which is most important to you, whether is corrosion resistance or edge retention. Most people seem to struggle with the difference in hardness and toughness as some steels which are extremely hard can be easily chipped and visa versa. All steels even stainless will oxidise if left out in the air and in water, so always take that into consideration
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From my own experience I’d put Buck’s 420HC BOS treatment somewhere between AUS-8 and 14C28N. Have yet to find a 440a blade that holds an edge longer than Buck's 420HC.
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These charts actually have zero.......I mean ZERO value without all relevant background information......edge geometry, heat treat, complete methodology are needed.
The red lines on the black are pretty, though.
The red lines on the black are pretty, though.
Makael
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Well its just meant as general information. Not exact in any one area. Its all in general. That should be a given. No reason to knock anything about general information. Without specific information about each and every manufacturers version it would be impossible. To say Zero value....These charts actually have zero.......I mean ZERO value without all relevant background information......edge geometry, heat treat, complete methodology are needed.
The red lines on the black are pretty, though.
If you would of read the info its clear it changes with every variation available... There are no hard rules.
just interesting reading about different steels.
Any chart with a unit-less Y-axis is bull unless the algorithm used to produce the number is fully explained. Once you know the algorithm, there needs to be error bars to show whether or not the measurement shows a true statistical difference in performance. Then you need to know whether the statistical model is correct and if there was enough data to make the statistics real 
It's all marketing crap, don't waste time even thinking about the relevancy.
It's all marketing crap, don't waste time even thinking about the relevancy.
I would personally disagree with a couple of the placements. 14C28N, for example is much better than 440C in many regards. It certainly holds an extremely sharp edge longer. It is a little less than 154CM in working edge holding if properly heat treated, but holds its initial sharpness longer. Heat treatment and edge geometry make a big difference in this steel. N680 is a great steel for salt water (as I happen to know), but I do not think it is quite on par with N690. It is more like ATS-34 or something in the knives I have.
Also, I know 440A can be run quite hard, in the low 60s, I believe. So, it appears that many of these placements are arbitrary. However, some of them I think are pretty on target. Then, again, I am no steel expert and am speaking out of personal experience, only.
Also, I know 440A can be run quite hard, in the low 60s, I believe. So, it appears that many of these placements are arbitrary. However, some of them I think are pretty on target. Then, again, I am no steel expert and am speaking out of personal experience, only.
David Martin
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I wouldn't say this chart has no use. It does need the Y-axis parameters defined. I see these type charts appear in knife magazines and it makes me snicker. It is marketing. The guy putting forth a chart like this is trying to show us how much he knows and make his dollar. But
there are several key factors that could skew these results. i.e.Heat treat, grind, cryogenic treatment, edge profile, the material being cut, sharpening grit and stone material, ect.. CATRA tests are a good place to start but it's only a starting spot.
Anyway I buy knifes primarily on blade shape first. Features second and steel is about 4th. So, charts are not a big factor with me.
But some guys will think they are legitimate. DM
there are several key factors that could skew these results. i.e.Heat treat, grind, cryogenic treatment, edge profile, the material being cut, sharpening grit and stone material, ect.. CATRA tests are a good place to start but it's only a starting spot.
Anyway I buy knifes primarily on blade shape first. Features second and steel is about 4th. So, charts are not a big factor with me.
But some guys will think they are legitimate. DM