Blade weight balance, full-tang vs hidden tang

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Nov 29, 2005
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I'm still working out what type of handle I want the handle to be for a shortsword/long knife I'm working on in 1/4" 1075. A hidden tang is more typical on a shortsword, from what I've seen (I've seen few with a full tang), but I was wondering about the weight. Would a full tang have a less blade-heavy balance? Would it even matter, or is the blade heavy balance what is best in a shortsword/long knife?
 
Ok. Read all that. Couldn't wrap my brain around quite all of it. Also, I'm not quite sure just how to apply that knowledge to production of a blade, rather than simply evaluating a finished sword.

..The cutting action I'd like to see in this is like a short saber. To make powerful cuts between 1/4 and 1/3 the down from the tip.

So now what I still don't get, is how to actually design and manufacture this blade, as far as weight distribution. How does one go about it? I might be wrong here, but what I gathered about sabers, was that the weight was more forward into the blade, and the blade didn't have too much going on weight reduction-wise near the end (IE: a distal taper.) The blade how I drew it didn't have much of that going on either, just pretty much a saber grind with a false edge on the spine near the front. Seems like from the links, too much weight up front actually moves the front pivot point (where the ideal striking zone is? :confused:) back to the guard more. If that's right, would I just remove material near the front until the point moves forward a bit?

If I'm wrong, I wouldn't be surprised. I've been neck deep in sword balance jargon for 2 hours. Interesting stuff, though.
 
You are trying to over think this.
Make the blade and leave the tang a bit long. Get the feel of the blade in the hand after HT and finish grind. Add the pommel weight as needed to get the right "feel". The big "skull Crusher" pommels were nothing but counterweights. If necessary, make the handle a bit long to move the pommel farther out form the pivot point (the guard), thus improving the " feels good in the hand" of the sword. A five pound sword can feel light, a two pound sword can feel heavy.
Stacy
 
I have been fighting with swords for 25 years, and making the swords I fight with for that long, (caveat: much of what I have done for 20 of those years has been simulated rapier play IE more point first than percussive/slicing cuts) but I have played everything from gladius to zwiehander/claimore and the must important thing is balance. You can make a sword with the center of mass/center of percussion way the hell out by the tip (picture the classic cartoon falchion shoped scimitar) and yes the thing will cleave a 6 inch oak tree, but your wrist will not be able to operate it for very long, and the kind of complex movement necessary for fighting will be impossible. for a cutting/chopping weapon I have found the optimum center of balance to be 3-6 inches out from your index finger, and a rapier is liveliest when the center of balance is right on the extended index finger, adjust your pommel weight to move your center of mass, and make your pommel large enough in cross section that your weapon does not leave your hand on impact if your hand is slippery

-page
 
That leaves me with just a few more questions (always more questions with me, isn't it?): Where is a good tutorial for hidden tangs? I saw the one which went over locator pins, but need a complete overview. Also, how do you attach a pommel? Do they have to be threaded on, and if so, how do you thread something?
 
Can't resist a thread about balance and mass distribution. :)
But first, let me say don't get so concerned about this stuff that it prevents you from actually creating your blade. Sure, do some research & try to get familiar with these concepts, but don't let what I or anyone else says keep you wracking your brain instead of grinding steel.

Now then, this article should probably be the place to start since it describes things on a more basic level.

Would it even matter, or is the blade heavy balance what is best in a shortsword/long knife?

Well, how long & heavy of a blade are we talking about here? What kind of shape? Something that looks like a short saber, or a clip or drop point? The smaller the blade is, the less it really matters, IMO. The differences will still be there, but may be harder to notice in real world use. I'd personally prefer to make the tang with less mass towards the back end, with whatever method you choose.

..The cutting action I'd like to see in this is like a short saber. To make powerful cuts between 1/4 and 1/3 the down from the tip.

Thanks. It's good to have a clear understanding of what you're trying to do. I don't think you'll need a great deal of distal taper to achieve this, since you'll remove some mass near the tip with that false edge anyway. You will of course need some distal taper though. Say, maybe in the rough neighborhood of 70% or so? (i.e., the tip area would only be 70% of the thickness at the base, assuming a blade profile more like a saber or katana. It may need to be thicker if you're removing mass with the profile tapers as well.) Of course, don't do the taper all at once- just keep grinding evenly off both sides & keep checking the feel as you go. This combined with the tapered tang should get your pivot point 1/4 to 1/3 back without need for pommel weights. Now as far as how powerful that blow is or how heavy it feels to swing, will depend on the total mass.

You're on the right track though regarding how removing mass from the tip will move the guard pivot (aka "dynamic balance point"- Cliff's term) out towards the tip more. But there is a practical limit here- the tip would need to get really light to move that point very close, so far as I can figure, and I'd consider this less efficient than using a pommel anyway.

You are trying to over think this.
Make the blade and leave the tang a bit long. Get the feel of the blade in the hand after HT and finish grind.

I agree that your intuition as a smith will play a huge role in this. And no one says you have to get it perfectly "correct" on the first try. I completely agree that the mass must be properly distrubuted in the blade first, before we can really even start thinking about adding a pommel.

The big "skull Crusher" pommels were nothing but counterweights.

Not sure how you're meaning this... If you just mean they're used to bring the static balance point closer to the hand, I'd disagree. They improve the "feel" by changing the blade's rotational behavior. Either way they do more than that, too. They can really add to cutting power at the blade's tip if done properly.
 
I make my handle blanks on the lathe, drilled through with an extended length (12 inch) bit that makes sure the hole is centered. I have a friend that made a setup on his drill press where he uses a bottom pin for centering he says that works for him (he puts the pin in the center of the blank with the pin centered under the bit) I made a squaring broach for opening up the hole to fit my tang but you can also use a square file. Alternately if you are doing a leather or wire wrap you can do the handle in halves routing out the tang channel then glue and wrap it. Attaching the pommel is easy if you taper the end of your tang down to round, leave it long enough to run out the other sid of your pommel,run a threading die over it, then tap your pommel to the matching thread. Put a spacer at each end of your wooden handle, and crank the pommel down hard to hold it all in place. When you are satisfied with the balance of your swordcut the tang thread off 1/4 inch beyond the pommel, put a washer on the backside of your pommel, and peen your tang ove to lock everything in place (yje washer is so if you have to grind your peen off on the future you won't damage your pommel

-Page
 
Does anyone have a link/the information on how to do a D guard/hidden tang?
I think I want to use wrought iron.

I think that would finish up what I need to know to start this project.

Thank you for the help,
-Robert S. Phelps
 
Possum:
The comment about the pommels was meant to point out that it was unlikely that you would go about bludgeoning your opponent with the pommel of the sword. The counter weighting of the pommel brings the rotational axis back toward the hand , making the sword "light" and "quick" in the hand. As you said, it can greatly affect the speed and "hand" of the blade. The "just right" compromise of the length of the handle and the weight of the pommel is best found in experimentation. I have balanced a sword by making a longer than desired tang, and starting with a long handle, slowly shorten it ( cutting some off and screwing down the pommel) until you get the right feel.
Stacy
 
For my part, I have found no good substitute for experimentation when it comes to getting the right amount of mass that allows fast handling yet also the desired level of cutting power, either. (since that will depend on your physique and intended targets) But the article I linked above had some very useful ideas on how to find the proper mass for a pommel which can really help cut down on the trial and error. Not sure if we're on the same page with that rotational axis part...

The comment about the pommels was meant to point out that it was unlikely that you would go about bludgeoning your opponent with the pommel of the sword.

FWIW, pommel strikes are indeed used in German Longsword, at least.
 
Blue Dragon
A D-guard with a hidden tang is fairly easy. I make them often.

Make the blade just like you would for a regular hidden tang. Make the D-guard and drill the back end for the tang clearance. Cut the slot in the front and fit to the ricasso shoulder. Make the handle to fit the space in the guard. Finish the handle off the knife. Once all parts are sanded and polished, mount the guard and handle on the tang. You can either cut off the tang and peen it for a permanent handle, or thread it and screw on a pommel nut.

Here's a trick to make the handle fit rock solid:
Put a couple of coats of wax on the tang, fill the handle hole (just drill the block so it goes on the tang) with a thickened,fast set epoxy, and slide it on the tang right up to where it will sit when assembled.Quickly wipe off any excess epoxy that came out onto the tang. As the epoxy starts to set up slowly move the handle back and forth a bit to break any bond the epoxy has on the waxed tang. As the epoxy gets hard, slide the handle on and off the tang making the hole an exact fit for the tang. Let cure, clean off the tang with acetone, and finish shaping the handle as desired. When the handle is finally assembled, there should be no twisting at all.

Of course, you could just glue the handle up permanently,like a regular handle, but a D-guard should really be disassemblable.
Stacy
 
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