BLADEFORUMS.COM - SUPPORT QUESTION

Sal Glesser

Moderator
Joined
Dec 27, 1998
Messages
11,745
Mike, Spark - 've been hangin' around here for about a year now. Not only does the forum provide a good communication vehicle for Spyderco to "mind link" with enthusiastic ELU (& Bruce), but it also provides an "enjoyable part of the job".

Naturally, We will subscribe to the BF mag, but more for BF support than for content.

Topics like "No BS testing" is difficult, if not impossible. We spend quite a bit in the testing area. The "Quest for knowledge" is a difficult path and an expensive one.

To me, the BF tests are simply the opinions of Mike et al. Qualifications become an issue. Even with our equipment, qualification to judge is a question.

The opinions of the forumites is already a lot of valuable information. The online magazine could provide services, like dates of shows, even some "Headline News", provide steel charts and the effects of alloying elements (like our catalog). Let the "opinion wars" go on in the forums.

But leave the details to "our magazine friends" that have been providing us with information for many years. (see below for more on this topic). Sure, they're not perfect...but Pobody's Nerfect".

I would like to make some suggestions. Please don't stone me...I am a member here trying to help.

First of all BF is a business, or should be. Many children enjoy the cartoons of Disney, but surely the children cannot understand or appreciate the cost of producing a cartoon, so the parents provide. "Provide" is the key word here...without it, no cartoon...no pleasure for the kids.

1) I believe that fees need to be charged for posters. They could be graded. eg; annual fee for posting is $25 / year paid each 6 mos. Members that can afford more, should pay more. What's it worth to you to be able to "join" this group? Also keep in mind that this is an astute group and shouldn't go too cheaply.

2) Companies should be charged more. Companies maintaining forums like Spyderco even more. Size of company could help grade fees.

3) People selling product could be charged a small fee, perhaps 1% of sales, etc. What would it cost to advertise in a magazine or nespaper?

4) The On-line magazine is also going to make enemies of the current printed media. Outfits like Tactical, Blade, Knives Illustrated, Knife world and a host of foreign publications will see this as an opponent.

May I sugggest that you Create the "Blade Forums Media Forum". Like the manufacturers forum.

Each magazine has a section with a deadline, a specific amount of space, geared to internet. They could schedule their "internet information which would not conflict wit the printed information.

We all win with no wars.

They would also pay a fee for "their section".

Just some suggestions. I'm sure some of the forumintes could add to and build on these.

"When you go to buy a drill, you don't want a drill...what you want is a hole. Keep focused on the goal!"

The goal is BF.com support.

sal

 
Thanks for the post Sal. I will answer the points you brought up based on my experience over the last 3 years in forums.
1) I believe that fees need to be charged for posters. They could be graded. eg; annual fee for posting is $25 / year paid each 6 mos. Members that can afford more, should pay more. What's it worth to you to be able to "join" this group? Also keep in mind that this is an astute group and shouldn't go too cheaply.

The forum section should be FREE to all members. The moment we charge any fee we will lose readers/members.

2) Companies should be charged more. Companies maintaining forums like Spyderco even more. Size of company could help grade fees.
I am not sure if that would work. Maybe the manufacturers who host/post here could find another way to support the forums but I don't really see the need to charge them as they are part of the "draw" for us. Just having Spyderco's forum here is a major plus for us in the credibility department. The traffic generated by your forum helps us justify the banner fees.

If a manufacturer wants they could simply buy a banner or several banners to their site. At only $499.95 for a full year it is a bargain compared to the magazines. I think that would be easier to swallow then charging for space on my server. Not to mention it makes the relationship more symbiotic.

3) People selling product could be charged a small fee, perhaps 1% of sales, etc. What would it cost to advertise in a magazine or nespaper?

I have thought about that. It would be a paper work nightmare to track as the current software here will not do it. Also the for sales boards are a draw as well. People come here and only check those boards. If I start charging I may lose many for sale posts and subsequently traffic.


I may open a On-line Knife Mall and charge vendors for space. The problem is that many vendors are enemies of several manufacturers and I would have no control over pricing and such. I am now in a difficult position in that regard. How can I run this site, keep the dealers and the manufacturers happy with all that is going on right now with pricing issues. It is no easy task. I am open to any and all suggestions.

4) The On-line magazine is also going to make enemies of the current printed media. Outfits like Tactical, Blade, Knives Illustrated, Knife world and a host of foreign publications will see this as an opponent.

They already do. I have talked to them and they view the forum itself as a threat. I am not sure why but I guess anything that gets a lot of traffic will be viewed as a threat. Also many people here no longer see the need for a subscription to the magazines if most of there questions are answered right here. Not to mention the real time nature of this place.

I want BladeForums to remain FREE overall. I would even like the magazine to one day be FREE. If I can get enough advertisers I will, and I will refund the subscriptions. To do that I would need a lot more banners running.

I agree about the "No BS Testing". What was meant by that is that I will mention knives that fail. We currently do not see that in the magazines. In fact I know you test knives all the time at Spyderco. You are in much the same position as the magazine in that you can not post the results of many tests as it would create enemies and as a manufacturer you do not need that. I could be wrong here but I am sure you have tested knives which turned out to be pieces of ****. Care to tell us who those are
smile.gif


All tests are always the opinion of the tester. I agree. What I try to do is put knives through tests that can be easily and readily duplicated by anyone. That way any member can see if I am telling the truth or not.

BFC is not really a business, yet. I am looking at it hard and currently it is a liability paid for mostly by me and my WOW business. I am now advised by my accountant that I need to remove the liability or make it an asset. A web site with my traffic should be making over $10,000 a day based on Internet examples. Man I wish!

The store has taken in about $40,000 since opening including banners. With about $12,000 of that gross profit.

Here is the math.
Our server cost us $5,500 (A bargain!).
Our Software costs about $800.
Sparks salary accounts for about $1,500 a month for his time spent here. So about $18,000 since the beginning.
Not to mention the other things we have bought like knives for testing, 600' of Hemp rope, boards and other stuff.

So as you can see we are very much in the red. I don't mind breaking even but at the rate we are growing the problem will get worse unless I institute a plan now.

It may appear I am grasping at straws at time. Maybe I am. I have tried several things short of putting a full on-line knife store here.

Sal,
If we put Spyderco knives here on BFC and followed your MAAP program would that be OK? I am sure that would be a big help and if it works we could bring on other brands as well and keep the prices up. This would show dealers that it can be done. The problem is I am sure several dealers will cry foul and many members have relationships with dealers and it would then make us out to be a competitor.

I am not sure how to proceed but I am open for suggestions.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

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Sal, you raise some interesting points. Im not sure I agree though. The magazines have one purpose, keep advertisers happy. Mike wont be tied down by that. You say that any testing will be Mikes opinion. Well, any "testing" done by the other magazines are the opinions of the writer. Steven Dick of Tactical Knives even said that the reason you only see good things is that because if a knife is junk, they dont write it up. That would mean if they have a knife featured, you can bet they will say good things about it. Personally, I think the approach should be more along the lines of American Handgunner magazine(I havent read that in a while so it might have changed), they would review a gun, and if it was junk they would say so. They were not intimidated by advertisers. If the magazines want to continue to only say good things about knives they review, they could save alot of paper and just follow this example:

This months tested knives: Spyderco Endura, Benchmade Axis, Sog govt.....

These knives displayed above average edge holding and cut rope quite well. Join us for our next issue where we will say the same of some more knives.

Ok, that is a little over simplified, but I want a magazine that calls it how they see them. As for making enemies of the printed mags, I doubt it, I myself buy whatever is on the news stand.

As for charging 25 bucks a year to post, really what I think would happen, is you would see this forum die overnight. I know many would say they would be willing to do that, but I think very few actually would. This forum has been free since it has been here, I dont think people would be willing to pay all of a sudden when there are other free sites around. Just my opinion, I do look forward to seeing other ideas on this.

Richard
 
I have to agree with Richard.
The print media has NOT been serving us..it has been serving the industry majors. Not publishing negative reviews is not just being "nice guys", it is being deceptive.
No complaint about that......those blokes have huge investments in hardware and infrastructure. They cannot afford to continually piss off major players in the market. And they DO get pissed off, don't they
smile.gif

Hopefully, the E-mag should be a lower $ investment relying on readers more than the majors.
All new publishing ventures are a gamble. Bigger the investment : bigger the need to suck up to the money people. Maybe this is a case of "smaller investment= less sucking"

I certainly hope it works.

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
I've been giving this some thought. I really enjoy BladeForums and would like to support it, but $25 to post? Probably not.

The magazine? I'm not sure yet, largely because I don't buy the hardcopy knife magazines either. On the other hand, $29.95 isn't any more than I spend on my Playboy subscription, and there are hardly ever any knives in there!

My preference would be to support BladeForums by purchasing knives through the BF store. Unfortunately, I found this site too late to get in on the only item that would've been of interest -- the Spyderco CF Dragonfly. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I don't need (or want) megafolders or big fixed blade knives. A small (<3") gentleman's folder would would be of much more interest to me.

Dave

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Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of More Knives

 
A good question here is what would happen if we opened a knife store here?

Our prices would be the highest on the net most likely because we would work within the guidlines of the manufacturers. Would you guys still buy from us or just go buy from the discount houses, or both.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

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I have a suggestion that should be easy to implement within the framework of what we have now.
I know there are some closed forums such as manufact,distb,etc. Why not have a closed forum WITHIN this site open to only subscribers? The other forums would(and should) remain free but those entering the closed subscribers forum would know they are interacting with other serious knife folks.

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Tim

 
Then you get either one, or both forums dying off. People don't have enough time to check out both and give them the attention they would need, so one or both would die.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
If you're a stereo nut, you know these same issues have been dealt with in that little world for a long time. You've had the big rags (Stereo Review, Hi-Fidelity, Audio) where big advertizing dollars means everything sounds great and has .00001 percent distortion, and the little rags (Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc.) where to the faithful everything sounds terrible except the few components chosen this month by this or that exalted editor.

I'm fascinated by the parallels.
 
The difference here is the magazine will not in any way be my proimary source of income. So it makes not difference to me who tests better. If the makers products fails well then it fails.

We have already seen what 3 makers do when they fail my test.

Benchmade checked their stock and made adjustments.
Camillus made adjustments as well.

The other one? Well let's just say he did not make any adjustments
smile.gif


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Support BladeForums! Check out the BFC Store!
www.bladeforums.com/store
Subscribe our NEW online magazine!
www.bladeforums.com/magazine
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Sal,

I do have an idea.

If you feel the forums are a positive asset to the knife community then maybe we could do the following.

I could print up flyers similar to the AKTI flyer you currently include with each knife. Or maybe a small busniess card like item.

Manufacturers who host forums here could insert one in with their products. We could print a message on the card saying "If you have a question concerning your purchase you may wish to visit BladeForums.Com. You may find your question has already been answered".

Or something to that effect.

This would help cut down on customer service calls which are probably quite common.

Also I have been thinking about AKTI. We could put up an orderform for AKTI to take memberships over the net using our secure server. We could then simply fax AKTI the memberships as we get them as a FREE service to help promote AKTI. Since they host a forum here and have a link on there site it is the least we could do.

Just a couple of thoughts I had before going to bed.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Support BladeForums! Check out the BFC Store!
www.bladeforums.com/store
Subscribe our NEW online magazine!
www.bladeforums.com/magazine
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Dear Mike,

I don't think charging $29.99 for the online mangazine is too much at all.But I am sure not everyone is like me. But I am also a bargin hunter so if you do open an online store charging full prices then I will not purchase from you. It is only natural. But if you offer products that are different and unique and only you have them then I would buy from you. Like the BF Native. You cannot expect your member to pay full prices if some are not even willing to buy a real endura. Keep focus on the magazine and I do believe it will work. I for one am looking forward to the second issue. Keep the Faith.

Liong

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Mike,

Those are two good ideas, the flyer in knife boxes and taking AKTI memberships at the BF Store.

About selling knives here - I feel that most members who are regular blade buyers have a main dealer they work with, depending on the brand/style knife they're buying. And when they plan a purchase they go to them first. When I want a knife, I'll check with my dealer first to see if he has it or can easily get it - if not, then I'll go shopping.

With MAAP-type competition initially you'd get spontaneous/impulse buyers, folks new to the Forums who haven't established a relationship with any dealer.

Also - if you sell PowerBlade knives, I doubt the PowerBlade manufacturer will stick a BF flyer in a box pointing customers towards one potential sales outlet (you) to the exclusion of the other PowerBlade dealers.

I agree with AncientSUL - the uniqueness of your product will be the attraction. Like the magazine.


Nick




[This message has been edited by chetchat (edited 13 December 1999).]
 
FWIW, some thoughts from a relatively new member. BF is probably the best source of information and knowledgable discourse on the subject readily available. Yes magazines have their place, heck some of us collect magazines as well, but they probably have good reason to feel threatened. Yes I will subscribe to the Emag, least I can do for perhaps keeping this great resource available to me. Don't know if it's going to get you in the black though. I do believe charging a 'membership' to post will kill the 'perhaps' golden egg though. Yes I might join up cause I already know what I'd be missing but eventually it would die of attrition, no new blood. I don't know what will insure your success but I do know you're 'successful' already. Perhaps no homerun yet but you've definitely got a ballgame. Popcorn, hotdogs, hats, shirts, choice momentos, whatever it takes you get the idea....your providing entertainment. I'll bet you'll find a way to keep the lights on. I believe you have an opportunity to 'grow' not only your audience but grow the knife audience for all; magazines, custom builders, manufacturers of all stripe from high end on down. You may be in the knife biz now with this venture as a 'side' but I believe that could easily change 180' in the not too distant future.

Best wishes always.
 
I really hate to have to suggest this, but the American way is to sell advertising. If I were a knife seller, I'd love to advertise here. Hundreds of knife enthusiasts see this site each day. Yet, there is only the one small banner ad. I have no idea what you charge to advertise here, but as membership goes up, so should the ad rate. You may also want to think about adding a second ad space.

I'll also offer again a suggestion I have made before. Create two new membership categories: Sustaining Member and Senior Sustaining member. To become a sustainer, you have to subscribe to the magazine. Sustaining member, of course, get the magazine. They get the extra distinction of the Sustaining tag on every post they make (this puts peer pressure to work). And, perhaps, every fourth month's drawing is only open to sustaining members.

Finally, I'd say sell more bladeforums.com trinkets. The one-size-fits-all tee shirts were a fine start, but you could sell other stuff too. Take a page from Nike's notebook: nice cotton tee shirt: $6.50. Same shirt with Nike Swoosh silkscreened onto in it Indonesian sweatshop $25.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
I too am afraid that an on-line store here, that sold things I could get elsewhere for cheaper would quickly fail. I like what the BF Store currently sells because it is stuff I can't get elsewhere. Like I suggested to you in email, perhaps a BF Sebenza, when you are not so bogged down.
I like the idea of having manufacturers (like Spyderco) include some sort of BF bussiness card with their products. I've found Sal in particular to be very helpful, and we get direct interaction with him here. However, if he or anyother company forum got too bogged down, their interaction could suffer.
I know that in the end, everthing will work out as long as you stay true to yourself and your goals.

Just my $0.02,
Mitch
 
I like the idea of the flyer being sent out with new peoducts. If it is possible for you to alleviate some of the time and energy companies spend on incoming customer relations then they might save some dough, and be willing to spend some of that saved money here.

Stuff sold in The BF Store should be personalized items marked with the logo etc. That way the items sold are different than what the dealers sell.

If anyone has not noticed, the auctions here were a flop. They were competing against the sale forums here. Gunsamerica.com has a neat setup and it is done on the honor system. if you sell a gun as a result of listing it there, you pay them $10. They don't hunt you down if you do not pay, and if there is any question about it thenyou don't have to pay. We could do something similar...a buck or two for each sale as a result of posting a knife here...on the honor system. I do not think too many people would have a problem with that.

With the magazine, what would really make it a cool thing is if it were available in .PDF format so I can D/load it and read it or print it out at my convienience. I like magazines because I can read in the porcelin library, while in the tub, or during classes and such, a little hard to do with 25 pounds of Mac 7200/90 & monitor to lug around (old machine). The possibility that the monitor might fall into the bathtub scares me, and my Fiance refuses to let me bring her laptop into the bathroom.

YeK


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"But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh." Judges 3:16

"But Bob Taylor made him a folder with a curved edge, 13" in length, and he kept it clipped in his pocket, on his right side." YeK 1:1

AKTI # A000348

 
This is great feedback so keep it coming!
I agree that if we did open a store we could in no way put those flyers in a manufacturers product. The dealers would all really FREAK out then and the manufacturers have a hard enough time with the Internet as it is. To throw support in only one direction which had a store would not be cool.

The manufacturers should list their on-line authorized dealers though.

BladeForums will remain FREE and a information resource. The highest profit margin for any product is information. No I just have to find a way to sell it.

We will put more unique items in the store.

Also I am exploring a afiliate program. It is an on-line store which we put right here on BFC and they pay us to sell there goods. We get the traffic and you would then know that a portion of the sale goes to us. We did this with Amazon and the results where less than spectacular. Maybe more products of a greater variety?

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Support BladeForums! Check out the BFC Store!
www.bladeforums.com/store
Subscribe our NEW online magazine!
www.bladeforums.com/magazine
Enter our Raffle!
www.bladeforums.com/raffle
 
Mike, Sal,

What happens if the paper mags say,
"Ok, Spyderco, we don't like your support and affiliation with what see see as a threat to us, namely Blade Forums. So unless you drop bladeforums we are going to not accept adverts, not feature them, etc."

Could Manufactures be forced to make that choice?

DaveH
 
Mike,
I thought you were the owner of WOW - which was a wholesale distributor. Instead of opening retail store, why do not open wholesale store. What makes the difference?

I did not see (maybe I just did not notice) any wholesale distributors' ads here so there would not be any competition.

I do not know why you sold WOW (and it is not my business either) but could not you deduct expenses you have (or had) with BF as expenses for advertising for your WS business?

David
 
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