BladeSports International needs you!

[Jose Diaz]

Recently, I had spoken to Ed Fowler about cutting competitions. We were discussing knife design, and that these knives are purpose driven tools. As the conversation flowed, he said to me: “You know, this is the only sport for knife enthusists.”

This struck me, though I already knew this. Swords have a sport-fencing, Spears have a sport-the javelin, axes have a sport-lumberjack sports, Tomahawk guys have well, you know, Tomahawk throwing. You get the idea.

BladeSports is the first knife enthusiast’s support. So, I am asking, why is it not more popular? One reason, I think it is, is that no one really knows about it. Cutting competitions have only been featured at knife shows, and knife specific events. So unless you are attending an event on the day that a cutting competition is featured, it’s possible that you may never have heard of such a thing.

The feedback I have received from individuals who have watched an event is very positive. People really seem to enjoy watching us hack away at 2x4s, water bottles, and golf balls. As a knife maker, I have sold many knives as a direct result of individuals watching a cutting competition.

I can also say that I have learned a ton about knife making and knife design as well as edge geometry and sharpening from participating In this sport. There are huge advantages to abusing a knife in such a way. Knife failures and successes are great information to gain, not to mention the notoriety from participating. Knife publications like Blade Magazine and Tactical Knifes Magazine have featured articles about our exploits. I can personally say that I have enjoyed seeing my name published in these internationally recognized publications.

What I am asking for in this post is feedback. I need to know what we can do to make this sport more accessible and popular amongst knife enthusiasts. I am also hoping for feedback from knife makers, as the most crucial research and development comes from those who make knives. What can we do as an organization to encourage more makers to get involved?

NASCAR and cage sports enjoys a huge following. Those who enjoy watching those sports without directly participating in them. What can we do to develop more of a fan base?

We are also looking for ways to encourage more sponsorship from knife manufacturers. Presently, the cost for sponsorship is $900 per year. This is not a very large amount for a lot of advertisement. Our sponsors enjoy 2 large banners, the ability to sponsor 2 competitors (who will wear anything that a sponsor will give them), a significant presence on the BladeSports International website, and with the partnership of BladeSports and all of our knowledge about competition knives (read free R&D) the ability to create a production competition knife of their own for sale. Benchmade has taken advantage of this collaboration process to make the Benchmade 171. The Browning Crowell/Barker knife is another example.

What more can we offer knife companies, and knife related businesses to participate? This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know what BladeSports can offer to businesses to encourage them to participate. So far Benchmade, Spyderco, Peters Heat Treating, DMT, Mantis Knives, and a few small businesses are participating. Sponsorship helps our organization financially. As we are a nonprofit, all sponsorship is tax deductible. The funds we obtain are used for running of our organization, funding of our website, putting on events, holding educational schools, and finally redistributing funding towards charity. Our board is composed completely of volunteers. Speaking as the executive director, I have never received a penny from BladeSports. In contrast, I know that I have donated both time and money toward a sport I enjoy and believe in.

I believe that BladeSports International is not just a passing phase. I have hopes and dreams that this sport will be just as popular as NASCAR, cage fighting, and baseball. Through hard work, support of our fans, and help from the sponsors this dream is possible. An example of our growth is the participation of affiliate organizations in the Netherlands, Australia, and the UK. Recently we have been approached by groups from Brazil and Italy.

We are growing, but to my eye not fast enough. What do you think we should do?

 

[cramsey3006]

Breaking it down to smaller, local chapters would make it a lot more accessible. I'd be up for that. :thumbup: I think that it looks awesome. I've read the articles in the magazines and would love to do it.

Looking at your event schedule, the closest event to me (Cincinnati, OH area) was in Sevierville, TN. That's a 500 mile round trip for me. The next closest one was in Missouri, and that's an 1100 miles round trip. For one event, once a year? I'm not too interested in something like that, to be honest.

Everything else is in TX, WA, ID, and CA. Logistically speaking, I would have to spend a lot of money and time to travel thousands of miles to compete in 4competitions. With everything that goes on day to day, week to week, I can't possibly travel like that to make it to 4 competitions, and most other people can't either.

It comes down to accessibility. If you want people to join and compete, or just come to events and promote, it HAS to be accessible.

Right now, it's not. That's the bottom line.

 

[Jose Diaz]

Breaking it down to smaller, local chapters would make it a lot more accessible. I'd be up for that. :thumbup: I think that it looks awesome. I've read the articles in the magazines and would love to do it.

Looking at your event schedule, the closest event to me (Cincinnati, OH area) was in Sevierville, TN. That's a 500 mile round trip for me. The next closest one was in Missouri, and that's an 1100 miles round trip. For one event, once a year? I'm not too interested in something like that, to be honest.

Everything else is in TX, WA, ID, and CA. Logistically speaking, I would have to spend a lot of money and time to travel thousands of miles to compete in 4competitions. With everything that goes on day to day, week to week, I can't possibly travel like that to make it to 4 competitions, and most other people can't either.

It comes down to accessibility. If you want people to join and compete, or just come to events and promote, it HAS to be accessible.

Right now, it's not. That's the bottom line.

Thanks for your reply. Accessibility is an issue that we have been trying to address. In order to set up a BladeSports "chapter" in your area, we need a group of individuals to build benches, host a school, and put on events. This is something that can be done right now. BladeSports instructors, including myself are ready, and willing, free of charge to come to you (or any one else) to get you started.

I personally, at my own cost travelled to Australia to do this very thing. The reason only have had events in the states you mention is because the above criteria were fulfilled.

If anyone is interested in starting up a BladeSports group in your area, please contact me. I will email you bench specifications, and set up a time for a couple of BladeSports instructors to head your way.

 

[cramsey3006]

Knife cost would be the other obstacle I see. Until people are really serious about it, I don't think that they will want to spend hundreds on custom blades. I know with my work situation at this time, as much as I'd like to, I can't spend $300-$400 or more on a blade. I could almost promise that if I talked the "boss" about spending $400 on a knife that I'm going to use to chop rope, tennis balls, golf balls, etc, she's going to laugh me out of the room. Competition or not.

Are the Browning or Benchmade knives ok for competition? Perhaps you can test some production knives to see if they can meet the standards you need for competition? Then a list of approved knives can be made available. With so many companies producing choppers now, there would have to be some decently affordable blades that can get it done safely.

 

[Jose Diaz]

Knife cost would be the other obstacle I see. Until people are really serious about it, I don't think that they will want to spend hundreds on custom blades. I know with my work situation at this time, as much as I'd like to, I can't spend $300-$400 or more on a blade. I could almost promise that if I talked the "boss" about spending $400 on a knife that I'm going to use to chop rope, tennis balls, golf balls, etc, she's going to laugh me out of the room. Competition or not.

Are the Browning or Benchmade knives ok for competition? Perhaps you can test some production knives to see if they can meet the standards you need for competition? Then a list of approved knives can be made available. With so many companies producing choppers now, there would have to be some decently affordable blades that can get it done safely.

Knives are provided at every competition and every school free of charge to anyone needing them. I know of several cases where makers from BladeSports have given knives to individuals free of charge or at a significant discount so that committed individuals were able to compete and practice.

Both the Browning Crowell barker and the Benchmade 171 knives are certified for competition. Incidentally, the Benchmade 171 is by far becoming the most commonly used knife in competitions- due to their affordability and quality.

Nothing is free, and I understand the cost of cutting up brand new 2x4's for the sake of practice. But there are ways to get the most out of materials for practice, and plenty of cheep and "free" materials to cut to improve your skills.

*free- meaning time and effort to go and get them, but no money exchanged.

 

[cramsey3006]

Perhaps I'll try to find as many guys as I can from my area on here, and see if it's something they'd like to get involved in. I'll PM you with my email so you can send me the details for everything.

I'd love to do it. Any reason to work with the big blades is a good one. :thumbup:

 

[Dan Keffeler]

There are some great replies hear.

I would be happy to help where I can

Dan

 

[Ed Fowler]

I also see some room for the armature makers to demonstrate what their individual knives can do, the competition need not be the same as what we see now, but up to the individual maker to do his own testing, should he wish to test to destruction it would be up to him. Small events like rope slicing dropping a knife tip first onto a plate of mild steel, clamping a torque wrench onto the tang or handle and measuring strength, the limits if this event will be up to the maker and there need be no winners or losers, just fun stuff we could all learn from.

 

[Gargs]

How about a competition of sorts for complete rookies with different tasks that they can be relatively successful at using a fixed blade they already own? It can be first of all fun and also challenging enough to require focus.

I think if you find a way to get more people to try it on that level, they may want to then go on and include a more challenging series of tasks as part of the hobby and also develop a deeper appreciation for what they're seeing at the competitions. (Sort of like little kids playing baseball leading them to be fans, minor league players and occasionally a pro.)

Cheers,
Steve Garger
PS: Hi Ed!

 

[Jose Diaz]

I also see some room for the armature makers to demonstrate what their individual knives can do, the competition need not be the same as what we see now, but up to the individual maker to do his own testing, should he wish to test to destruction it would be up to him. Small events like rope slicing dropping a knife tip first onto a plate of mild steel, clamping a torque wrench onto the tang or handle and measuring strength, the limits if this event will be up to the maker and there need be no winners or losers, just fun stuff we could all learn from.

Hello Ed,
The issue with having a public event, testing knives to destruction is the safety aspect. Destructive testing is hugely helpful, and really almost everything I know about destructive testing comes from knowledge passed on through your writings. I have learned so much testing and pushing my designs to the point of destruction.

In competition, every knife must be tested before the event. The testing history must be known by the competitor, and is at times asked for by the officials before a competition.

We are working on an event that would involve smaller knives that might appeal to more people. It is under wraps at the moment, but it will focus more on day to day cutting tasks that most casual knife users might face.

I was told once, "If you're not breaking knives, you're not learning anything."

On the other hand; I would like to see an event or demonstration where knives are tested and used in a manor that is more inline with "everyday" use. There would be a lot learned in such a public demonstration. Knife judging at shows has turned into a beauty contest, and a user category like best Hunter/Utility knife should be a knife that should have some testing for ergonomics, sharpness and ability to complete a task safely, comfortably, and with good function. This type of contest I would enjoy and participate in.

How about a competition of sorts for complete rookies with different tasks that they can be relatively successful at using a fixed blade they already own? It can be first of all fun and also challenging enough to require focus.

I think if you find a way to get more people to try it on that level, they may want to then go on and include a more challenging series of tasks as part of the hobby and also develop a deeper appreciation for what they're seeing at the competitions. (Sort of like little kids playing baseball leading them to be fans, minor league players and occasionally a pro.)

Cheers,
Steve Garger
PS: Hi Ed!

We do have a white level (beginner) level of cutting participation. We limit what knives are used in competition, again because of safety. Not every knife can be safely used in cutting events. I have personally tested some factory made knives and had them fail. These failure are mostly due to putting the knife past "regular use." Handle failures, heat treatments that cause the knife to be too hard or too soft, and breaking of blades can cause injury to yourself, officials or the observers. We try real hard to prevent those issues.

I'm not saying that all factory knives are inappropriate for cutting competition, but like every tool, there is an appropriate and inappropriate task for each knife (tool). I thing the saying goes right tool for the right job.

 

[amcardon]

Hey Jose,

I have been interested in bladesports ever since talking about it with you at the OKCA mini show in 11/09... I have looked at a lot of knives and wondered how they would do in your competitions and have thought about competing myself - the competitions look like a blast! I have kept and eye on the bladesports website for a while and have watched for any events close to me and followed the updates and new vids posted. I'm not too far from you, being in Portland, but Ellensburg is still a little far for me (read: my wife) to justify the trip up there "just to cut stuff" (her response, trust me, I've tried convincing her!). I wish I had some good advice or unique ideas on ways to improve but I really don't. I think to us knife-nuts cutting competitions are really what knives come down to in many ways; that's why we have knives, right? Don't we all want to know what our knives are capable of? You see sites like knifetests.com and people purchasing knives based on the torture tests they put knives through (which I must admit I enjoy watching as well), I see bladesports as a way for makers to show off the ability of their knives as well as the competitors demonstrating skill with a blade. I love the choppers you make that many of the competitors use, I wish I could get one myself, those things are BAD!

I'm hoping this comes across clearly, but knowing my ability to convey what I'm thinking it probably won't. One of the biggest obstacles I see is that most people don't use or own "choppers" or even machetes anymore. If you were to ask my wife what she thought of bladesports I guarantee she would say it's a bunch of guys trying to show how sharp their knives are but has no real-world application. I strongly disagree with that but in all honesty understand where she's coming from. On the homepage it says that your purpose is to "promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool." Promoting knife safety and using knives as tools are really big things for me. As a Scoutmaster I spend a lot of time with my boys talking about and using knives, saws, axes, etc... but even a lot of the parents don't understand why its such a big deal. One parent told me I was wasting my time after a presentation about knife safety and the proper use of different knives and told me that nobody carries/uses knives anymore, there is always an easier tool for the job. I demonstrated proper sharpening and use of a machete and asked who had ever used one and not a single person raised their hand. It almost seems like the biggest obstacle would be to introduce and educate people outside of the hard-core knife enthusiasts. Maybe that's not even a goal for now, maybe it's just getting more notoriety within the knife communities. Forums like BCUSA constantly have threads on machetes and choppers and are always well received but these are "knife guys" to begin with. Heck, even within knife communities it's sometimes hard to convince people why a custom knife can be well worth the higher price tag and that it will outperform the off-the-shelf knife they claim is just as good. It's a completely different argument, obviously, but has some similarities in that it is trying to open up people's minds to a new idea.

I am blown away that it's production companies as your sponsors, I never would have guessed that! I would have thought it would be the makers who specialize and are known for their awesome choppers! There are some makers here on BF who do a run of choppers and the list of guys willing to put a deposit down to own one fills up immediately! I would think this is an awesome opportunity for makers who are trying to stay in this niche of larger blades to promote themselves and their product. The $900 annual sponsorship fee might be a little steep for a maker who would love to be a sponsor but can't swing that kind of coin; maybe have different levels of sponsorship?

I really hope I'm making some sense (if not I'm blaming it on the fact that its past my bedtime!), I truly want to see bladesports succeed and progress forward.

Anyway, I hope you get some comments from people more creative than myself. I would love to see bladesports become more popular, if nothing more than my own selfish desires to watch and maybe participate myself. If there's anything I can do to help I would be more than willing.

BTW - Who runs your Portland chapter ?

 

[Jose Diaz]

I'm hoping this comes across clearly, but knowing my ability to convey what I'm thinking it probably won't. One of the biggest obstacles I see is that most people don't use or own "choppers" or even machetes anymore. If you were to ask my wife what she thought of bladesports I guarantee she would say it's a bunch of guys trying to show how sharp their knives are but has no real-world application. I strongly disagree with that but in all honesty understand where she's coming from. On the homepage it says that your purpose is to "promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool." Promoting knife safety and using knives as tools are really big things for me. As a Scoutmaster I spend a lot of time with my boys talking about and using knives, saws, axes, etc... but even a lot of the parents don't understand why its such a big deal. One parent told me I was wasting my time after a presentation about knife safety and the proper use of different knives and told me that nobody carries/uses knives anymore, there is always an easier tool for the job. I demonstrated proper sharpening and use of a machete and asked who had ever used one and not a single person raised their hand. It almost seems like the biggest obstacle would be to introduce and educate people outside of the hard-core knife enthusiasts. Maybe that's not even a goal for now, maybe it's just getting more notoriety within the knife communities. Forums like BCUSA constantly have threads on machetes and choppers and are always well received but these are "knife guys" to begin with. Heck, even within knife communities it's sometimes hard to convince people why a custom knife can be well worth the higher price tag and that it will outperform the off-the-shelf knife they claim is just as good. It's a completely different argument, obviously, but has some similarities in that it is trying to open up people's minds to a new idea.

Pushing and testing limits has been a big part of what BladeSports does. We do our destructive testing in private (for safety reasons) then share our results.

I like to think of BladeSports as the equivalent of racing sports and organizations like NASCAR. Much of improvements in vehicle safety, fuel efficiency, ergonomic function and performance improvement comes from pushing the limits and hard use on the track. To me, the Chopper knife is the equivalent to the race car in that respect. No one drives a race car to work. Vehicles in general do more than make left turns. The Chopper is a hard use and varied tool, that performs a wide variety of function. Everything I have learned from running coarse events has in some way or another made it into my smaller knives (which by far are the better sellers). But that hands on R&D is important to the industry.

I am blown away that it's production companies as your sponsors, I never would have guessed that! I would have thought it would be the makers who specialize and are known for their awesome choppers! There are some makers here on BF who do a run of choppers and the list of guys willing to put a deposit down to own one fills up immediately! I would think this is an awesome opportunity for makers who are trying to stay in this niche of larger blades to promote themselves and their product. The $900 annual sponsorship fee might be a little steep for a maker who would love to be a sponsor but can't swing that kind of coin; maybe have different levels of sponsorship?

I asked Sal Glesser of Spyderco why he chose to participate so fully in BladeSports. His answer to me was inspiring. He said something to me like- You guys are out there pushing the limits. We believe in that and we want to be a part of that.

It made me feel good about being a part of this sport. People walk away from our events smiling, laughing, and asking questions. They are shocked a knife like ours can do so many things! It's that kind of inspiration, and thought provoking reaction that keeps me interested.

By the way, we do have a secondary sponsorship level of $450.

BTW - Who runs your Portland chapter ?

Get yourself a group of 5 interested and committed individuals, build some tables, get a space to play, and materials to cut, and we'll come to you. We will, at no charge to your group send instructors to any area where these variables are met. We'll even bring knives, so no one has to spend the money to buy them.

I guess, now you've become in charge of our Portland contingent!

 

[yablanowitz]

Here's a message from the peanut gallery if ever there was one.

The fact that you encourage the "don't try this at home" mindset is both good and bad. Good, for the obvious safety reasons, and bad because frankly, why would I go to the effort (and trust me, that's what it would be) to hunt up four other people interested, build all the necessary equipment, secure the consumables and ask you to come to the geographic center of nowhere to try something that I have no idea whether I would enjoy? I spend time on knife forums mostly because I don't know a single person within a hundred mile radius that shares my passion. I somehow doubt that I am unique in that respect.

I'd love to try the sport, but with the price of fuel these days, I honestly can't see myself ever even seeing an event, much less getting a chance to participate.

 

[Dan Keffeler]

Hey Jose,

I have been interested in bladesports ever since talking about it with you at the OKCA mini show in 11/09... I have looked at a lot of knives and wondered how they would do in your competitions and have thought about competing myself - the competitions look like a blast! I have kept and eye on the bladesports website for a while and have watched for any events close to me and followed the updates and new vids posted. I'm not too far from you, being in Portland, but Ellensburg is still a little far for me (read: my wife) to justify the trip up there "just to cut stuff" (her response, trust me, I've tried convincing her!). I wish I had some good advice or unique ideas on ways to improve but I really don't. I think to us knife-nuts cutting competitions are really what knives come down to in many ways; that's why we have knives, right? Don't we all want to know what our knives are capable of? You see sites like knifetests.com and people purchasing knives based on the torture tests they put knives through (which I must admit I enjoy watching as well), I see bladesports as a way for makers to show off the ability of their knives as well as the competitors demonstrating skill with a blade. I love the choppers you make that many of the competitors use, I wish I could get one myself, those things are BAD!

I'm hoping this comes across clearly, but knowing my ability to convey what I'm thinking it probably won't. One of the biggest obstacles I see is that most people don't use or own "choppers" or even machetes anymore. If you were to ask my wife what she thought of bladesports I guarantee she would say it's a bunch of guys trying to show how sharp their knives are but has no real-world application. I strongly disagree with that but in all honesty understand where she's coming from. On the homepage it says that your purpose is to "promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool." Promoting knife safety and using knives as tools are really big things for me. As a Scoutmaster I spend a lot of time with my boys talking about and using knives, saws, axes, etc... but even a lot of the parents don't understand why its such a big deal. One parent told me I was wasting my time after a presentation about knife safety and the proper use of different knives and told me that nobody carries/uses knives anymore, there is always an easier tool for the job. I demonstrated proper sharpening and use of a machete and asked who had ever used one and not a single person raised their hand. It almost seems like the biggest obstacle would be to introduce and educate people outside of the hard-core knife enthusiasts. Maybe that's not even a goal for now, maybe it's just getting more notoriety within the knife communities. Forums like BCUSA constantly have threads on machetes and choppers and are always well received but these are "knife guys" to begin with. Heck, even within knife communities it's sometimes hard to convince people why a custom knife can be well worth the higher price tag and that it will outperform the off-the-shelf knife they claim is just as good. It's a completely different argument, obviously, but has some similarities in that it is trying

BTW - Who runs your Portland chapter ?

We had a cutting competition In Portland on 8/7/2010. If there are enough participants I would be willing to go to Portland and train cutters and help put on an event. I know that Benchmade has tables that we may be able to use.
I am also moving to Portland this Fall.

Dan Keffeler

 

[cramsey3006]

Here's a message from the peanut gallery if ever there was one.

The fact that you encourage the "don't try this at home" mindset is both good and bad. Good, for the obvious safety reasons, and bad because frankly, why would I go to the effort (and trust me, that's what it would be) to hunt up four other people interested, build all the necessary equipment, secure the consumables and ask you to come to the geographic center of nowhere to try something that I have no idea whether I would enjoy? I spend time on knife forums mostly because I don't know a single person within a hundred mile radius that shares my passion. I somehow doubt that I am unique in that respect.

I'd love to try the sport, but with the price of fuel these days, I honestly can't see myself ever even seeing an event, much less getting a chance to participate.

I can see where he's coming from on this. I posted a thread right after my initial replies to Jose, asking for anyone in the Cincinnati or surrounding areas that would be interested in trying to get something together to contact me. ONE PERSON did, and I haven't heard back from them since then. Cincinnati definitely isn't in the middle of nowhere (LOL) and there are many people from the area (within 100 miles) on this forum. If "knife people" aren't interested in a sport about knives....?

Maybe BSI needs to do a tour or something? Hook up with the outdoors shows that run every year and do demo's? There would be lots of exposure to the general public that way. I know that Cincinnati has a Travel, Sports, & Boats show each year, and the Cincinnati Bass Pro Shops has their hunting and fishing classics shows each year.

Honestly, if you don't religously read the knife magazines, and there are still many knife nuts don't, you'd never really hear about BSI.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Jose: The testing to destruction would not have to be dramatic or hazardous, nor would it interfere with BSI, just another event to add diversity to knife shows.

I think it would be a good thing for BSI to visit the other venues and invite some of them to visit knife shows.

After my article on this subject came up in Blade I got a bunch of emails from folks with questions and wanting me to contact them. Unfortunately my computer crashed and I lost them all, any of you who read this please get back in touch with me.

 

[Jose Diaz]

Jose: The testing to destruction would not have to be dramatic or hazardous, nor would it interfere with BSI, just another event to add diversity to knife shows.

I think it would be a good thing for BSI to visit the other venues and invite some of them to visit knife shows.

After my article on this subject came up in Blade I got a bunch of emails from folks with questions and wanting me to contact them. Unfortunately my computer crashed and I lost them all, any of you who read this please get back in touch with me.

Thanks Ed.

Keep challenging us. The only way we'll grow understanding is by asking the right questions.