BM improvements on 710 & 806 soon?

C

curious2003

Joined
Apr 20, 2003
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Ok I have decided to get both a BM 710HS and a 806D2. As you all know, they are both coated with BT2. Yet many manufacturers are switching to BC coating and even BM has used it if I'm not mistaken on other knives.

The 710 and 806 are two of BM's most popular folders, so my question is if BM will soon come out with boron carbide or any other improved coating over BT2. Do any protective coatings exist that are NOT black but transparent?

I have heard that BM, unlike companies such as Spyderco, do not release information about future knives. However, if anybody does have any inofrmation regarding this please speak up!

I do not want to spend almost $400 for both knives only to find out that 6 months later they come out with new improved models.

When was the last time either the 710 or the 806 received upgrades/improvements?
 
i dont forsee benchmade changing processes as far as black coating is concerned, there is 2 other coatings which are black and considered tougher then the black teflon BM uses.

1) Tungsten DLC (Masters of defense uses this now)

2) Carbon Nitride (Masters of Defense uses this to)

but i dont see benchmade using them.



I got a MOD ATFK (www.specialmissionknives.com) and its got the carbo-nitride coating and its tough!.
 
Originally posted by curious2003
why not?

what about replacing 154CM with S30V?
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One answer can probably sum up both questions: Cost. S30V is still considered a premium steel. The coatings are both most likely more expensive too.

They are doing a number of limited editions in S30V this year. You'll have to content yourself with those for at least the time being.
 
These knives dont need upgrades, M2 High speed tool steel on the 710HS
is nice and unique and tough.

and D2 on the 806 is nice and tough.

I wouldnt want them in anything else, until if and when they can be upgraded with light sabre blades hehe.
 
I would say get them now, as tonybigthumbs said. There is no more room for improvement on these two models in my opinion
 
I do realize it keeps costs down but SPyderco uses S30V on their high-end knives no problem and prices are same range as a 710 or 806. For example the Military comes with G-10 and S30V.

Yes I realize both are great knives now but

1) if S30V will be offered in the near future I'd rather have that because it's uncoated

or

2) if better coating is offered then the knife won't look so ugly so easily

so I'm guessing it's all speculaton with Benchmade as nobody knows anything regarding S30V or better coating right?
 
Curious,
I do not want to spend almost $400 for both knives only to find out that 6 months later they come out with new improved models
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Thinking this way it would be impossible to buy any knife, car, computer etc, etc. – no one can warranty that half year later improved model couldn’t be issued. It would be impossible even to marry because no one could warranty that half year later you couldn’t meet better partner.

Believe me or not but there are no ideal knives around as well as no ideal cars, guns, computers or wives... The true art is specifying of your needs reasonably and choosing what you need among real things.
 
What I meant was if better coating was released (ones that don't scratch) I owuld be 100% satisfied. The problem now is that the teflon used on the two are not as good as what is offered by other makers.

If one were to find a woman with all the qualities he was looking for then he would be happy with her. However, it seems like most people are not happy with BM's coating thus far.

If they don't release better coating for the next few years I would be happy using my knives. However I think it's understandable if I would be upset if I bought these knives to use for a few years only to find out that the week after I purchased them they came in coating that wouldn't scratch up after a week's use.

In terms of the car analogy would you rather buy a 2003 model car in it's last incarnation in Sept or get the 2004 model with all the improvements in Oct at the same price that won't see new changes until it's next facelift 5 years later? I don't think too many people would choose the former...

I'm not looking for the ideal. I just prefer better coating!
 
i hate to break it to you, but you wont ever find benchmade selling an uncoated m2 blade. they dont coat it to tease you, they do it to prevent the blade from rusting, thus preventing themselves from angry customers how complain about rusting blades. got my point ?

regards, cheez
 
Originally posted by curious2003
What I meant was if better coating was released (ones that don't scratch) I owuld be 100% satisfied. The problem now is that the teflon used on the two are not as good as what is offered by other makers.

However, it seems like most people are not happy with BM's coating thus far.

I'm not looking for the ideal. I just prefer better coating!
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I'd say it's every bit as good if you consider why it's there: To prevent rust. From what I've read various places, the Teflon coating is one of the most rust resistant coatings you can get. Even when it starts to wear off, it continues to work as it bonds with the metal. It also again helps to keep costs down as it's cheaper.

People don't like it because of the looks. How often do you hear people complain because it doesn't perform the job?

I have a BM 835HS (M2 coated) that I use every day. Since it's a user I have no problem that the coating is coming off in places. I bought it to use it, so use it I do. I just shows that the knife is used IMO.
 
Curious of course it is up to you, but unless you are now a mad keen collector, I can't really see the purpose in purchasing both those models. They aren't exactly the same, but there's a lot of similarity usage-wise, nevertheless. So for that reason, I'd suggest putting the funds towards another model instead of one of those, for the sake of variety.

Benchmade aren't as forthcoming about their intentions for the future as Spyderco. We can only speculate why that might be, although I have to say it does 'suck' to an extent. In any event, that is the way it is. But to be fair, none of that means BM gives no indication at all. At certain shows at least, they display future models - limited editions mostly. BM does seem to overplay the limited edition concept.

On the basis of indications provided to date, BM wont be releasing an S30V 710 or 806 in the near future. So far, the only indication of a 'nuance' is a 710 in uncoated D2, aluminium with CF insert scales, I think. I don't have any doubt BM will produce an S30V 710 at some point, but WHEN is the big question. BM plays the marketing game to a pronounced extent, I think it's fair to say.

Anyway the point for you as a prospective purchaser is, where to draw the line. How long you are prepared to wait, in other words. I could very easily be wrong, but wouldn't be anticipating a 710 or 806 S30V within six months from now. Past that - who knows. So it's a matter of your own patience really.

As for BC1 coating, yes it is more attractive, but it does not provide anything like the same protection against corrosion as BT2. BC1 is really more about scratch resistance. BT2 is not only proprietary to BM (unlike BC1), but does what seems to be the best job to date with corrosion resistance, by a significant margin. So I wouldn't be holding out big time on change for all that sort of thing either, although of course you never know.
 
Hi Curious. Perhaps your expectations on coatings might be a little high? We have found that ALL coatings will eventually be affected by use. Some are harder, some softer, some work better for corrosion resistance, some are more attractive, etc. All of the knife mfrs using coatings all have to deal with occasional unhappy customers. I believe this is because the knife customer expects more from the coating than the coating has to offer, IMO.

Even if the coating is harder than steel such as the BC coatings, the steel under the coating may dent or scratch when sufficient force and hardness hits the coating. The steel beneath the coating "gives" a little bit, and then the coating is forced to yield.

As mentioned, M2 is a "non stainless" steel with a chrome content of under 5%. Some type of corrosion resistance is necessary to satisfy the knife user that is accustomed to stainless steels. I'm sure that Benchmade has considered the available coatings and selected the one that serves the customer best. Unless something comes along that is more funtional at corrosion resistance, I would guess Benchmade would stay with what is serving the needs.

sal
 
Originally posted by curious2003


When was the last time either the 710 or the 806 received upgrades/improvements?
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Less than a year ago, BM started to ship both knives with phosphor-bronze washers.
 
The only rumor I've heard is that BM might do an 806 Model in D2 with a satin finish and no coating, which I would consider an upgrade personally....

I don't like BT2 at all.., but as Sal mentioned, there is no "Bullet-Proof" coating anyway. I prefer none at all myself...
 
Man, if BM started BC1 coating their AXIS AFCK and 710HS I'd be on top of them so fast it'd make your head spin.

Heck, I'd even settle for Black Titanium Nitride (a coating I have had pretty good luck with), but as long as they keep coatin' em in BT2, they can forget about me, that stuff sucks.
 
Richardallen

I would be satisfied with a S30V satin finished blade or a M2 with more resistant coating

Switched

Since I am new to knives and BM too I have no “feel” for how they usually change their offereings, i.e. length of time before upgrades usually. Like you said, I have a better feel for Spydies b/c it seems they make batches at a time and constantly improve their steel/locks and are forthcoming about future changes. For example I was about to purchase a Military but when I heard about the new Paramilitary coming out in a few months with S30V, g-10, compression lock, and tip up/tip down/left/right carry I decided to wait for it. With BM I do not have this luxury

Well between the 806D2 and 710HS I have no clue which to choose then if I had to pick one. I do not have either offered for me to examine in my area. The 710 is larger correct?

Ok I was under the impression from what I thought others have said that BC1 offers the same amount if not more, protection as BT2 without the drawbacks of an easily scratched up finish. However, if BT2 does in fact protect better I would definitely choose that.

How does M2 compare to S30V anyways in qualities?


Sal

Yes I know there is no coating that will be impervious to scratching but it seems as if BT2 scratches with minimal use that other coatings such as BC1 can resist.

Anyways, how’s the paramillie coming along?? :)

I’m saving a portion of my knife budget for that baby when it comes out…


Examonlyf

Won’t uncoated D2 with satin finish be in danger of rusting too? I know D2 is not as bad as M2 in that respect but the satin doesn’t offer any protection right?


Where did you hear this rumour? Or is it just wishful thinking from customers? Doesn’t BM often do small runs for forum members for choose their own configurations? Couldn’t that knife be theoretically made now if we asked for it?
 
Originally posted by curious2003

Won’t uncoated D2 with satin finish be in danger of rusting too? I know D2 is not as bad as M2 in that respect but the satin doesn’t offer any protection right?
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Unless you live in a highly corrosive environment near the ocean or work around water a lot, rush probably won't be an issue if you take even rudimentary care of your knife.

I had an uncoated 1095 carbon steel slipjoint that i used a lot and carried for several months. 1095 steel is not even slightly corrosion resistant and will rust very easily. I'd just wipe it off if it got wet, and never had a problem.

Same thing with my O-1 kitchen knife. Just remember to keep it dry and it will be fine.
 
Originally posted by curious2003
Where did you hear this rumour? Or is it just wishful thinking from customers? Doesn’t BM often do small runs for forum members for choose their own configurations? Couldn’t that knife be theoretically made now if we asked for it?
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On the Benchmade forums there are regularly "wish threads" on what people would like to see. This may be one of those, but I couldn't say for sure

BM has only once done a 'forum knife'. It was the 705HSCFBC1. :) 705 w/carbon fibre handles, M2 blade, and BC1 coating. I was limited to 100 pieces. They do put out numerous limited editions with variuos handle materials & blade materials though. So if you're looking for something, just keep an eye out for those limited runs. Also, some distributors/dealers order special runs of knives. Those are a bit more difficult to find info on as BM does not advertise them at all.

So theoretically the knife could be made now, but so could the other 50 or so knives people would like to see. ;)
 
From what I've read, BT2 is Teflon based and works both to protect the steel from corrosian and to lubricate the blade in heavy cutting. It might look bad after some use, but continues to do it's job for a long time.

BC1 and DLC on the other hand are carbide based coatings whose main properties are to improve surface hardness to resist abrasion, but have no corrosian resistanant properties. These coatings are used mostly for cosmetic effect as most good blade steels with decent heat treat don't get scratched by staples while opening boxes, they get scuffed on sharpening stones.

From what I know, M2 has far less Chromium than D2 and thereby needs corrosian protection whereas D2 which is high enough in Chrome to be almost stainless and can be used uncoated. M2 could be used uncoated or with a carbide type coating, but would require more maintainance from the user.

There's no reason you couldn't buy one, have the BT2 sandblasted off and send it out for DLC or BC1 type coating.

Benchmade certainly has done BC1 coatings, but as far as I know only on stainless blades. I have a 941BC1 with a red handle and a 154CM blade with BC1 coating. It was my first safe queen. I think G2 considers this model knife to be his favorite folder. It's sweet.

As an aside, I think Sal Glesser's post should be noted. Not only is he on the money as far as content goes, but more importantly, he takes the high road and passes up an obvious opportunity to promote his company and fault a competitor's product or methodology. I have never owned a Spyderco knife, but that sort of attitude makes me want to find one that I have to add to my modest collection.

Remember guys and gals, these are just my opinions.

jmx
 
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