Boiling not effective?

D

DOC-CANADA

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Recently, I read the following on the Weather Network (click on "Weather Network" to see the article.)

Residents were advised, because of an algae bloom to "not to brush their teeth with or boil the water because that would only increase the toxin's concentration."

(If you click on one of the links, there seems to be some controversy whether or not the advisory was ever issued.)

However, I was always under the impression that boiling the water would remove any hazard such as presented above. Does anybody have any more information regarding this seeming anomaly?

Doc
 
Seems logical to me, regardless of the origin of the article. Simple boiling only kills living organisms. It does not remove toxins. And a toxin produced by algae seems to be what they are talking about. Removing chemicals and heavy metals requires a different treatment. Such as distillation. And even that isn't foolproof as some pollutants can be, along with the water, turned into a vapor and recondense in the distillation process.
 
Blue green algae blooms are an issue in Australia sometimes and release toxins into water. Here's a handy link to an Aussie government site about it:
http://www.environment.gov.au/water...e-green-algae-cyanobacteria-and-water-quality

It explains how they occur, the toxins and yeah how boiling can make it worse.

The news article in the original post links the City of Toledo's Facebook page. They seem to be saying something different on that page (water may be safe to drink?). This may be a case of "check with your local authorities".
 
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Algal blooms in coastal areas that are often referred to as "red tide" and can be present in shellfish, have toxicity that is not eliminated by boiling.
 
Codger_64 said:
Seems logical to me, regardless of the origin of the article. Simple boiling only kills living organisms. It does not remove toxins. And a toxin produced by algae seems to be what they are talking about. Removing chemicals and heavy metals requires a different treatment. Such as distillation. And even that isn't foolproof as some pollutants can be, along with the water, turned into a vapor and recondense in the distillation process.
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Thanks for the reply Codger. I was aware that boiling would not remove chemical and heavy metals, but I thought that boiling would remove problems caused by algae. Time to correct that misconception.

Chris Larrikin said:
Blue green algae blooms are an issue in Australia sometimes and release toxins into water. Here's a handy link to an Aussie government site about it:
http://www.environment.gov.au/water...e-green-algae-cyanobacteria-and-water-quality

It explains how they occur, the toxins and yeah how boiling can make it worse.

The news article in the original post links the City of Toledo's Facebook page. They seem to be saying something different on that page (water may be safe to drink?). This may be a case of "check with your local authorities".
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Chris. As I mentioned above, it's obviously time for more homework on my part.

Smithhammer said:
Algal blooms in coastal areas that are often referred to as "red tide" and can be present in shellfish, have toxicity that is not eliminated by boiling.
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Thanks for the reply Smithhammer. This really caught me off-guard. I guess, though, it was a good thing.

Thanks all for taking the time to give this old head a shake. :D

Doc
 
Here's another one for you. All this time I thought botulism was a toxin that couldn't be "killed" because it's not alive. It's bacterial scat. Well, it's not alive, but after doing some research, it appears that botulism can be killed by boiling for 20 min. Just gotta boil it in an open pan because its anaerobic.. Go figure.

Anyway, it's a protein that is denatured by heat. Good to know.

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1307
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html
 
There are other nasty things that don't roll over because of higher temps. Prion disease (food risk) is a good example of well done not mattering. One thing though. It's possible to work ourselves into an internet frenzy over back country water. Always make water potable but know what risks are real and which are much less likely.
 
I think the reason that blue-green algae isn't mentioned is that often it happens in water-ways that are known to be prone to it, and in cases of blooms, they just sign it and shut it down.

New to me on the botulism as well.
 
I heard of the reports on the algae toxins previously. This stuff is scary! Is there anything else that is doable at home to treat water in a similar situation?
 
schmittie said:
I heard of the reports on the algae toxins previously. This stuff is scary! Is there anything else that is doable at home to treat water in a similar situation?
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Distilling the water should work, and that's a lot easier at home than in the field. Try Google for the electric and stove-top midels and for do-it-yourself diirections.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Distilling the water should work, and that's a lot easier at home than in the field. Try Google for the electric and stove-top midels and for do-it-yourself diirections.
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I think you're correct. I haven't heard of anything distilling won't remove.

The above statement was rephrased, please see below as I don't know every last thing on Earth.

I think distilling will work for a good number of common water born hazards.........
 
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Not normally found but present when dry cleaning fluid finds it way into the water table (Geauga County, Ohio, in the 1990's), benzene and toluene will not be removed by ordinary distillation.
 
Woods Walker said:
I think you're correct. I haven't heard of anything distilling won't remove.
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Be careful with that, I hope one of our chemists chimes in here. Evidently there are a whole bunch of toxins and poisons that have the same - what's the term - vaporization point(?) as water. They will happily vaporize and condense with the water and kill you. Now granted, if you are distilling from a stream running off snowmelt, you might be ok, but if you are drawing from a pond that is fed by a golf course - I wouldn't touch it.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Not normally found but present when dry cleaning fluid finds it way into the water table (Geauga County, Ohio, in the 1990's), benzene and toluene will not be removed by ordinary distillation.
Click to expand...

sodak said:
Be careful with that, I hope one of our chemists chimes in here. Evidently there are a whole bunch of toxins and poisons that have the same - what's the term - vaporization point(?) as water. They will happily vaporize and condense with the water and kill you. Now granted, if you are distilling from a stream running off snowmelt, you might be ok, but if you are drawing from a pond that is fed by a golf course - I wouldn't touch it.
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Foreshadowing.......

Woods Walker said:
It's possible to work ourselves into an internet frenzy over back country water. Always make water potable but know what risks are real and which are much less likely.
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This is how these threads often go. Now we have dry cleaning fluid and a general call for "chemists". I won't be distilling water from snowmelt runoff as would use my Micro filter. As drinking from a golf course water trap it's too expensive given the cost of 18 holes. LOL! I didn't mean that distillation could remove every last thing from the Earth as I don't know every last thing. I will rephrase so to save us the need for chemists.

I think distilling will work for a good number of common water born hazards.........
 
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Hi

Please could you Guys suggest well written educated article on what water purification is needed when backpacking
the risks and the solutions

thanks
 
Woods Walker said:
Foreshadowing.......



This is how these threads often go. Now we have dry cleaning fluid and a general call for "chemists". I won't be distilling water from snowmelt runoff as would use my Micro filter. As drinking from a golf course water trap it's too expensive given the cost of 18 holes. LOL! I didn't mean that distillation could remove every last thing from the Earth as I don't know every last thing. I will rephrase so to save us the need for chemists.

I think distilling will work for a good number of common water born hazards.........
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Yeah, I agree with you and can be overkill, but it was a really interesting thread that answered a LOT of questions.
 
neeman said:
Hi

Please could you Guys suggest well written educated article on what water purification is needed when backpacking
the risks and the solutions

thanks
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I can't promise this will be well written and only have experience drinking water needing to be made potable aka not a chemist or biologist or Google search master. If it's winter I mostly boil because cold tends to do bad things to filters. Sometimes I will melt snow.



Other times I will collect it from small moving brooks/streams/springs that hasn't frozen over. Less work and risk. Remember water offers more risks than just illness. Be it melted ice, snow of cold water it's going to get boil. Cold alone won't make it potable.





For warmer weather I have been using this Sawyer Micro filter with good results.



Boiling also works well for warmer weather but it takes time. Best done in camp when resting not when thirsty during the heat of the day. As an added bonus often the water cools nicely during the night.




A fast drink out of a spring with my Frontier pro filter straw.



There are tabs on the market as well. I like using tab plus a prefilter aka coffee filter, bandanna etc. The prefilter also works great for those snow melt floaters. But read the tab's instructions as they can take time to kill the nasty stuff. Also keep track of the expiration date.





In addition I have several pump filters plus used bleach as well. Pump and gravity filters are nice for groups but can be heavier than necessary for just one person.




I think the correct amount of bleach is between 10 or 20 drops but forgot as haven't used it in years. If or rather when bleach leaks it's a mess. IMHO making water potable is a bit like sharpening a knife. You have to think a little about what's going on. The boiling, filters and tabs do a great job removing nasty little things. Some can't remove viruses or chemicals etc etc etc but then again what's your risk? Are you in a 3rd world country or the back country? I have activated carbon inline additions for the DIY Sawyer mini gravity filter but so far never judged that as needed for the areas employed. There are other things which activated carbon won't remove but again what's your risk? Knowledge of the area helps expose these risks.

I believe if someone purchase a good filter, pack tabs in case that filter fails and exercises common sense combined with knowledge of the area all will be just fine. If someone thinks tossing charcoal from a fire on moss then running water over that is going to actually work odds are things won't end well. Basically it's up to you. But on the flip side if you're ever really hard up for a drink and don't have any means to make the water potable do whatever yea can to make the situation better but in the end drink. You might or might not get sick days later however dehydration will put the hurt on long before that. Not sure of any article on the subject that stands out. Maybe see what the various manufactures of water treatment options have to say on the matter.
 
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