Boker Damascus and Sandwich Damascus?

O

oldspooky

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Oct 3, 2010
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I am a collector of Boker Damascus and am well aware of the quality differences between Damascus from Solingen and Damascus from China used in Boker knives. I was surprised recently on two recent acquisitions that I made. One is a Gentleman's Mother of Pearl, 112007 which is made in Solingen and a beautiful Damascus, just I would expect from Boker. However, I recently saw an advertisement for the sale of what at first I thought was the exact same knife; Boker, Damascus, Mother of Pearl scales and made in Solingen. The description in the Boker box is that the Damascus was a Japanese Damascus which was a "sandwhich"; a metal core with Damascus layering on the two sides. I might have expected this from a Boker Magnum but not one stamped Solingen.
Any clarification on this from anyone? Does Boker Solingen in fact make knives with "sandwhich" Damascus; which to me is not really a Damascus blade?
Second is a question on a related knife or actually a sword. I recently purchased a Boker Magnum Damascus Ninja Sword. It is listed in catalog as made from 200 layers of Damascus steel and I expected something similar to all the other Magnum Damascus knives I have but instead it appears to be a central steel core with Damascus steel laminated on the two side; "sandwhich" Damascus?
It did not dawn on me until I saw this term related to the Gentelman's knife above. A prior Magnum Samurai sword I got was real Damascus and I anticipated this Ninja sword to be the same. It wasn't.
Any clarification on this? I feel like I got an inferior Damascus sword without any warning that this is what it was. Unlike the knife above that at least gave an honest description.
 
I have never heard of us using sandwich damascus on any Solingen made knife, I have not seen the insert you are referencing either. Years ago, we did sell a 2006E which was not sold as damascus, it was sold as an etched blade with a grey bone handle, but it was a limited run, and not sold since I have been with the company.
I just looked up the description of the 112007DAM and it is not a pearl handled knife, it is a titanium handle.
The only pearl handled damascus we made are the 112005DAM, and once again, is hand forged, not sandwiched, as is the 111007DAM, which is the small gentlemans pocket knife. Not sure where this info came from so I have answered the best I can.
As far as the Magnum sword, I don't have anything other than what is in the catalog, which states it is 200 layer damascus, so I cannot speak to that.
Terry
 
Terry,
My error on the catalog number. In the Fall 2010/Winter 2011 Catalog, page 13, is item 111007 which is the Gentleman's 2" Damascus with Mother of Pearl scales. This is what I have and am very happy with. It came in the wood box with all the expected paperwork. What I saw that confused me was on e-bay, in a non-wood box and I am sorry I did not copy the information from the page; I was not looking for evidence but just curious when I read the description. It closed yesterday and I cannot find it today on e-bay. There was a photo with the knife in the box with a correct size paper insert that described this as made in Solingen with Japanese Damascus and as a "sandwhich" Damascus, even giving the Japanese name for this type of Damascus. That is what caught my attention. It did not seem right to me. That is what percipitated my post. It is also what got me to re-look at my Ninja sword which was curious to me from the moment I received it. The Ninja was made in China so I was less critical given the cost.
You may want to take a look at the Ninja yourself to see what they are actually making verses what is listed in the catalog. I could have bought a counterfeit.
Based on your response above, should I consider the e-bay gentleman's knife I saw to be a counterfeit?
 
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Mcusta Knives in Seki, Japan laminates 33 layers of a Damascus steel over a VG10 core - their folding knives are well respected. Jacksonville, Alabama's Bear MGC knife makers employ 512 layer Damascus made next door at subsidiary Alabama Damascus - also Kershaw's source for their Damascus blades. While not as neat looking as the teardrop and twisted cable styles, it is real Damascus. While my several such examples will cut on the pull stroke - the micro serrated edge being quite effective - they never get as razor sharp as a solid core blade. I wonder if Mcusta could have sourced the cored Damascus Boker blade? Or... maybe it was a fake!

Stainz
 
Stainz,
When I see a description for 200 layer Damascus Steel, I presume it is made from a folded steel billet and the knife or sword is pounded out into the finished product. Should makers of laminate-on-core let buyers know what they are buying? It really appears to be two different things. Laminating the sides of a core should not provide the same advantages of layered steel with its one steel cutting edge and the flexibility of layering above the cutting edge. In "sandwhich", the core really provides the cutting edge and since it goes all the way through, it would seem the flex is lost. Is the purpose of laminating the sides of a core only cosmetic? I cannot see how it adds anything structural.
Art
 
oldspooky said:
Stainz,
When Is the purpose of laminating the sides of a core only cosmetic? I cannot see how it adds anything structural.
Art
Click to expand...
It is traditionaly called San mai. Its purpose, ..., for one, a maker could use a high carbon steel for the cutting edge and weld a more corosion resistant outer to make a knife with less maintainence. MCusta uses a VG 10 core with 33 layers of nickel. Chad Nichols is making a steel now that welds a patterned damascus to a 6K stelite core. Mike Norris and Chad also make San Mai billets of various steels. Another would be less material for the cutting edge, more of a cost factor. Fallkniven uses 3G, which is an exspensive powder steel, for the core on many blades and laminate VG 10 on the outside, cheaper steel.
 
Stainz, I contacted Ken at Bear and Son in Alabama and he tends to confirm my impression of Damascus knives. His response when asked about using a core and laminating Damascus on the sides, follows:

I don't know what you read or where you read it but our steel is 100 percent damascus steel.
We make 2 Damascus patterns 1st is 512 Damascus it starts with 8 layers of med and high carbon steel then it's hammered into about 1 inch thickness and then folded and process starts again. So it starts 8 then 16 then 32 then 64 then 128 then 256 and finally 512 then it's surface to required thickness then we stamp or water jet the blade and the grind.
The other steel I'd 416 high def ladder the same process however it has nickel layers added to the layers.
Let me know if you have any more questions it's made about a mile from them plant and its the reason we Manf knives in Jacksonville al
Ken
Message from Ken Griffey; Bear & Son Cutlery
I do not doubt that others are using cores and laminating Damascus to both sides for whatever benefit, but to me the process Ken describes is what is described by Manfred Sachse and is what I think of as Damascus Steel for knives and swords.
Art
 
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