Bowie Input Requested

3

30-30 Cal.

Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Messages
243
Hi All,

As some of you know, I'm a new knifemaker. I've made two knives now, both with files, hand tools, etc. I recently bought a belt grinder, and I've now finished another knife, a 11" bladed bowie. I like concave grinds, I have this wierd idea they are stronger. However, I flat ground this blade-I got a pefect from spine to edge grind, leaving enough on the edge for a slight bevel.

The problem is, at least I think so, is while the blade is 11" and 1.25" to 1.50" wide, and 3/16's thick at the spine--the blade just doesn't fit my idea of a bowie knife. It seems, well, too light. If I were trying to make the perfect fighter, I may have done so. This knife could skin game, gut an enemy, etc. It's a great slicer, but I don't think a person will be able to chop wood with it.

I've seen dozens of flat ground bowies by acclaimed makers on this forum, are these blades light and thin like mine? Or was my technique bad, resulting in a overground blade (even though I got a perfect grind and spine). Or, is my idea of what a bowie knife should be wrong? :confused:

I don't think I will flat grind a large blade again, but I'd sure like your comments.

Dave
 
Some photos would be nice.

I have a few bowies and some of them have amazingly light blades. This makes them very fast in the hand and perfect for the original purpose the bowie was designed for; that being as a fighting knife. If this was designed as a chopper then in my opinion a hollow/concave grind is not the best choice. Flat or convex, like an axe head, would work better.

It is impossible to design a knife that will handle all chores equally.
 
Dave, maybe you should try to go knifeshows and figure this one out for yourself. You're the maker, do what you want. As far what a bowie should be, well, I've always considered to be not too thick, nor too thin. To me, it doesn't make sense to put a point clip point on a knife that's going to do really hard work.
Also, there was a thread, not too long ago that discusses this exact thing.
I'll post a link:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346874&highlight=bowie
 
Thanks for your reply, Keith

I'll post pics of the bowie in the morning. If the purpose of a bowie is that of a pure fighter, then I think this knife fits the bill. I've always thought of a bowie as a heavier blade, which can be used for a variety of purposes; thus my dismay at how light a true flat ground blade is-even though it's a long blade.

You may also remember my post awhile back on my first knife. You asked for closeups of the handle and guard area. I sold the knife, but I do have some pictures of those areas and will post those also.

Again, thanks

Dave
 
11" blade X 1.25 to 1.5" is too narrow for starters. 3/16 is also on the thin side for anything over 9" in blade length.

For reference, the below bowie has a 10" blade x 1-7/8" wide (at widest point), In my view its a fairly typical bowie in geometry.
DCP_2108.sized.jpg
 
Well, by your description, the knife does sound a bit smaller than my personal idea of "bowie". I think of a big knife. 12" to 18" blade, 1 7/8"-2 1/4" wide, made from stock 1/4" or thicker. I think it should excel at both cut and thrust. Thrusting will not be as big a priority on a camp type knife, but a slender fighter should have a fine point. But others have different ideas of what makes the perfect bowie.

The dimensions are only part of it though. How you distribute the mass and shape the blade obviously have a profound impact on performance as well. Does your blade have a long clip and slender point for sticking? Or does is have an abrupt clip and wide belly at the point? How much distal taper? All these can make your blade better for a given task even if other dimensions are similar to a different knife. By the same token, you can screw up one or more of these qualities, and end up with a knife that will not perform very well at anything.
 
"Does your blade have a long clip and slender point for sticking? Or does is have an abrupt clip and wide belly at the point? How much distal taper? All these can make your blade better for a given task even if other dimensions are similar to a different knife. By the same token, you can screw up one or more of these qualities, and end up with a knife that will not perform very well at anything."

Not to steal this post... But Ive had this question for a long time but thought It ws quite dumb of me to ask. But what is a:

Clip on the knife and a Distal taper. Sorry to ask but for a long time a knife was a tool and thats all it was.

Thanks,
pj :D
 
Personally, I think it's pretty hoaky when somebody grabs a clunky knife and says, "yeah, that's a good heavy knife with some serious heft!"

I make my camp knives a little blade heavy for chopping, but that doesn't mean they're heavy. Just the balance is a little more ahead of the guard than on a bowie.

I am all about light and fast. There is a very thin, fuzzy line between most bowies and fighters... it's often a 6 of one, half dozen of the other sort of thing.

Just my $0.02 1/2, but I say go for light and quick. :D

-Nick-
 
Hi Guys,

I thought this post was dead. Thanks for all the reply's. After quite a bit of reflection, I came to the conclusion the blade just wasn't right. Can't point to a specific reason, it came down to how it felt in the hand. Just too light. I did start out with 1/4" stock, by the way. As I flat ground I also put a distinct distal taper on the blade. I've concluded that taper was too extreme and will put a far lesser taper on my next blade. I will also be more careful in the angle of the grind, as I think I went too deeply and thus ended up with a narrower blade than I wanted.

I frankly admit me and my new blade grinder haven't made friends yet. One of the things that's happened, also, is the longer blade ends up warped, or to put it another way, slightly bent so it is no longer straight. I haven't figured out if I am excessively grinding more metal on one side than the other, or if this is caused by the blade getting too hot.

As for the blade in question, my final solution was to turn it into a hunter. i am not finished, though, I will start another bowie this weekend. Hopefully, it will turn out good. Again, thanks

Dave
 
There was a post about bowies with some interesting comments from ag russell. He had links too where there was documentation about the origin of the bowie -it was designed as a heavy duty hunter not a fighter !! Yet it has become known as a fighter. Most in the old days were made overseas, mostly in Sheffield England ! So today I guess it's whatever you want to make it.
 
Mr.Wrong said:
Not to steal this post... But Ive had this question for a long time but thought It ws quite dumb of me to ask. But what is a:

Clip on the knife and a Distal taper. Sorry to ask but for a long time a knife was a tool and thats all it was.

Thanks,
pj :D
Click to expand...
A clip point refers to the shape of the knife. If you look at it from the side, the spine makes an abrupt shift toward the point.

Distal taper refers to the thickness of the blade. If you look at the full length of the knife's spine, it will be thicker in the middle and gradually thinner toward the point and pommel. It makes the knife fast in the hand.

Hope this clears things up.

Dave, best of luck on the next one.
 
Fellas,

I know what a distal taper is; I know flat grinds, hollow grinds, and so on. I've actually been around quite a while, and even made a few nice knifes. My problem is, well hell, guess I got a bunch, but here it is--I've made my knives with files, sandpaer, etc. Getting used to a belt grinder isan experience all by itself. :)

I've been to knife shows, I've handled and bought expensive and very nice knives. I'm finding its one thing to buy them, another to make them. If I can get my computer problems cleared up, I'll post pics of the blade in question.

Dave
 
It's in the eye of the beholder. Looking back thru time
at different periods, one epoch will show one style as the standard while another point in time will put forth something completly different. They may be called the same thing but have few similarities. I have a fairly extensive library
that shows blades from around the world and throughout history. It amazes me, the bladed tools man has labeled as Knives. Fred
 
NickWheeler said:
Personally, I think it's pretty hoaky when somebody grabs a clunky knife and says, "yeah, that's a good heavy knife with some serious heft!"
-Nick-
Click to expand...

:D
Yeah, I'd have to agree. At the Saint Louis show, I handled a huge "bowie" that was very thick, with no distal taper, about 2 1/2" wide. A crowbar would've been easier to manuever.

But by the same token, I don't always agree when someone picks up a knife and declares it perfectly balanced, just because the balance point is at the guard or first finger. This is not ideal for all blade types, as you mentioned. There's more to it than that anyway- they dynamic handling of a knife balanced behind the guard may indeed seem slower and more "clunky" than a similar knife with a balance point in front of the guard. Think about that one for a minute... ;)
 
A bowie should never feel heavy. It should be 'solid' but quick in the hand. Here's a pic of one I made recently for my brother. He specifically requested I make the guard out of some copper and bronze coins he had from Roman times(Circa 200-300 AD). I smelted 'em and made a thin guard, but it looks nice. The Blade is 154CM 11" long or so, with a curly walnut handle. It is 1/4" thick at the spine, 1 3/4" wide, and feels no heavier than a good butchers knife would.

large.jpg


WYK
 
30-30-
Sounds like you've got a good idea where to go; now just to do it. I wish you the best of luck and fun in this endeavor. The other guys here are a vast resource of knowledge if you have any complications.

WYK-
A bowie should never feel heavy. It should be 'solid' but quick in the hand.
Click to expand...

I like that description.
Interesting clip design on that knife you posted... Care to share some thoughts on that design?
Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear some of those hunting-with-a-knife stories you alluded to earlier. ;)
 
the possum said:
WYK-

I like that description.
Interesting clip design on that knife you posted... Care to share some thoughts on that design?
Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear some of those hunting-with-a-knife stories you alluded to earlier. ;)
Click to expand...

I have been interested in Bowies for a long time. I mostly owned them until I decided I could maybe make one. I started with having Chris Bowles grind a design out for me, studied it, and then started to work on my own blades. In my experience, the best balanced Bowies had the heft right above the guard - about 1.5-2" out from the guard. For cutting, hacking, stabbing, and fighting purposes it seemed to me to be the best compromise for balance. Some like the balance to be at the guard, some like it way out on the blade for hack and slash fun, but I like to balance the overall design as much as possible and make it a good all around performer - which is really what makes a Bowie shine. A Bowie should do everything well.
In order to get a long 10-13" Bowie to balance this way you have to put a large guard on it, or large bolsters and pommels etc. Or make the blade thin, or short. I found that you could lighten the entire knife, making it quick in the hand even if it is a nice thick and tough 1/4" stock, by simply putting only a wood handle and a small guard behind the blade and by making an extremely large clip. You could sharpen the last few inches (4" in the case of my brother's Bowie) to lighten it even further, and make it effective at a back cut or a stab. I also design them so that, when held in the hand, the blade tips downwards ever so slightly. This causes a natural cleaving/kukhri type action when it is swung. In other words, it helps to accellerate the tip. I also was influenced by many designs from Sheffield and from some Confederate Bowies I had seen that were fashioned from Calvary sabres, and large hand-made butcher's knives. A quality hand made butcher's knive is an extremely well-balanced and effective weapon.

On the 13" Bowie I am making from 52100, I am sharpening the entire 8 1/2" of clip on it to balance the 1/4" thick stock. I'll let ya know how it goes. I hope it survives the heat treat ;)

As for hunting...I'll start with a story a friend of mine shared with me not too long ago. He had been waiting on a buck to come around to his 'blind'. Basically he was ghillie suited and sitting on a fallen log that was hanging precariously over a trail. The buck never came. He was about to call it a day when a large doe stopped directly on the path underneath him. He really didn't want any venison, so thought he'd "have some fun". He unsheathed his 8" Bowie and dropped down onto the doe. After a few of "the most violent moments in [his] life", the doe fled with nary a scratch. He didn't so much as manage to cut the doe. It had beaten the bejesus out of him, though. What pearls of wisdom did this ole knife hunter have for him? "That'll learn ya."

WYK
 
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