Breaking the financial back of those that sell knockoffs

DaveH

DaveH

Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Messages
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This is an expansion of an idea from the TK magazine Knock offs thread.

What if all the knife companies organized and withdrew advertising money from those places that encourage knockoffs.

They would also have to deal with online vendors that sell knockoffs as well. I'm assuming pressure would also have to be put on the distrbuters that supply the online vendors.

Can a knife company refuse to sell to distributers, or do distributers move so much of the product they'd be hurting their own business?
 
Either way, it'd be painful. While much of the current providers of media for advertizing don't care about anything but a check that clears, most makers and companies need advertizing to sell new wares and entice new customers to get their hands on the classics. Today's buyer of junk and knockoff junk could eventually become tomorrow's Emerson fanatic and the gateway is through advertizing. If the good stuff isn't advertized in the same place where he's currently eyeing the bad stuff, what hope is there for a spontaneous crossover?
 
Very true Thom. How many of you bought a Sebenza for your first knife? I still have many of my first "cheapie folders". I am talking stuff I used to buy from the Bud K catalog. My tastes have since changed. (Buy the way, thank you Spyderco, Benchmade, William Henry, etc..)

Now I practice my sharpening on the cheapies first.
 
Interesting thread! I wonder tho' if we are woefully underestimating the total knife market.

Higher end, i.e. $75 and up, knives are marketed to a very small percentage of the total market. We have some 17K members on this forum, arguably the largest knife forum on the planet, and yet there are knife companies that produce 10,000 knives A DAY! Their sales are going to folks who consider $10 a magnificent sum for a knife. The higher end sales go primarily to buyers who got started in their multiple knife buying ways with the cheapies and then "grew" in their knowledge and awareness of knife nuances to the point where they could justify the cost of a Spyderco or a Benchmade etc. Finally, when "production" knives could no longer satisfy, they start putting down big bucks for customs. At each stage the total market numbers decrease dramatically.

I well remember the matra espoused two or three decades back that the ONLY way for the higher end market to be increased was thru the process of "educating" the knife buying public. That education is VERY much influenced by the negative experiences associated with cheapo products. Any effort to thwart or remove those cheapos, whether they be knock-offs or not, would have a very negative long term effect. I think its well to consider that the primary buyers of the original designed stuff, ARE NOT the buyers of the knockoffs. Hence the impact on actual sales of custom knives may well be moot!

Just my $.02 ;)
 
Revmic,

Well stated! I'd have to agree with this progression theory. People who haven't seen what >$20 can buy them in terms of quality and materials won't be able to justify spending $40 and up. They unethical companies are somewhat driving traffic to the quality makers through consumer trial and error.

Those who are satisfied with what the unethical makers produce, are probably not in the core target market of the ethical makers, and are otherwise not going to spend $$ for a quality tool anyway.
 
Dave,

I think it's an excellent idea. If we could get Sal, Les, or C.J. Buck to sign on I think it might have a significant impact. How do we do that? Maybe you should take the lead on this... ;)
 
Interesting notions. They are echoed by the best of the best in handmade knives.

In Reno I listened to one maker explain the 3 year process of developing a new customer:

While attending a show (maybe one of these guys that has moved all the way up to $100 folders) he spots a table of this custom maker. For the first time in his life he sees a knife unabashidly priced at $1,200. He's in shock and awe. The maker explains the process of hand forging, fitting,quench lines, etc.

The next year he returns to the show and brings a friend that doesn't believe him that a knife is worth that much. He shows the knife to his friend and HE explains how it's made.

By the third show he's saved enough money to buy his first hand made knife. Usually an unadorned hunter in the $500 range.

A new custom knife nut is born.

Steve
 
IMO most knock-offs are sold in flea markets, gas stations and other places people who buy good knives or even ok knives won't look for knives to buy. Their target market is either the really cheap (people who are too cheap to buy a Buck or Gerber at Wal-Mart, for example) or those who know nothing about knives. I've even seen some freak selling knock-offs of Spyderco, Cold Steel, and Emerson with a group of teenagers gathered around him while he advocated his $4.00 fake CQC-7 over a firearm while they bought both his story and his knives. :rolleyes: :eek: I've spoken with people who wondered why I paid $40.00 for my Endura when their "Endura" was only $3.00. What I really don't understand is the very expensive but low quality knock offs like that company that makes the fake Striders out of 420J2 for around $100.00.


Here is what looks like the first Tracker knock-off:

http://web.iwebcenters.com/stlouiswholesale2/item172396.ctlg

edited to add: This knife is not a good copy so I guess that isn't really a knock-off, but more of an example of these cheap companies trying to use a concept they don't understand.
 
IMO , we don't want to stop the production of knock-offs . This would put the majority of B&M stores out of business (and probably some net vendors as well) . It would also have a huge effect on that little kid that never saw a bunch of cheap knives in a store , so he never wanted one , so he never got a cheap one that would break , so then he didn't need to look for a quality one , so he never became a knife nut :( .

What we do need is for the original designer to be paid and be given the proper credit for his (or her) design . The Linton PAB should say Linton Strider and Strider should be getting some $$$ and recognition . This way everybody wins including the little kid :) .
 
The big question is who will be the "judge" or "jury" to decide which knives are knock offs and which ones are just a "cheaper" design variation of a more expensive knife. This is a very very difficult situation to overcome.

I make a living in the Toy Industry and I can say that the court costs (if a situation reaches the court level) and the legal maze involved in protecting a design or attacking a "knock off" is very very expensive and unending.
 
As with everything else, vote with your dollars. Don't buy the knives and magazines you find ethically distasteful. Economics will prevail (eventually) and determine whether most agree with you or not.

Knockoffs are rampant in all industries (take watches for instance) and I'm not sure there is a way to deliver a sledge hammer blow and knock them all out of existence. Ethics aside, entrepreneurism is endorsed and has created this environment where creativity includes 'how close can I copy another product more cheaply without infringing on the originals rights'. Knockoffs fill a void by appealing to lower market tiers on the basis that they can supply all the 'eye candy' of the real thing for less money.

Infringements on patents and manufacturing rights are the responsibility of the owners of these properties. It is indeed a burden for a 1 man shop to protect his/her design and intellectual property but within the current system there are tools to do so. We all can assist by voting with our dollars. This could include donating to the legal funds of known makers that are having infringement problems. Other than that, I guess we can all fume about it and attempt to garner public opinion with posts like this...
 
Please bear with me because my english is not so good, or good enough to put my words through clearly.

After reading the TK thread and this one, many thoughts and methods has been discussed about stoping such makers and vendors from "stealing". Many people also think the spill over effects from the sales of knock-offs will eventually lead to genuine knife buyers. whatever it is, the most effective method is spending your money where you think it counts and ethical. Such knock-offs are not only limited to the knife world, there are many other products we use daily that maybe a knock-off of another product. You must be wondering...'do i?' Maybe you don't notice because the dish detergent or soap in the toilet does not draw your attention, to you it's just a piece of soap or a bottle of detergent. My point is, the person who buys such knock-offs have no knowledge of the knives or they simply don't care! make no mistake, i do not support knock-offs but rallying a campaign to stop knock-offs will take you to...? If strider think the knock-offs are harming their business in anyway, they will have the most power and authority to call for a court case. whereas we can use our own intelligent to decide if what we are buying is ethical or not. Reality is, there may be more people out there who is willing to buy a $3 knock-offs than all of us here in Bladeforums combined who spends $400 for a folder less than 4inch in size. To the normal Joe we are insane and sanity is just a line away from insanity....

I live in Asia and knock-offs can be found in every corner and literally in any form, it's a patent officer's nightmare but individuals like me are able to choose what we buy and support. I'd rather wear a $50 Seiko than $10 Rolex knock-offs....You can't stop the knock-offs but you can stop buying from them.

Just my 2 cents, hope i didn't offend anyone.

eric.
 
Yes, there's certainly is a larger context of inexpensive goods harming legitimate manufacturers and social structure. I often think of walmart as a an example here in the US.

My point is on this one issue, perhaps we can do something about it.
 
Dave, it seems to me that your point is the crux of this issue, namely; are inexpensive goods "harming" other manufactrers. I'm not covinced that is necessarily true. If by "knock off" we mean "counterfeit", then your point has validity. However, most, read nearly all, "knockoffs" in the knife industry, are not counterfeits being marketed as originals with an intent to deceive the knowledgable buyer. As has been noted, the price point is well below that of the originals, but so is the obvious quality and performance. If indeed Strider is being hurt financially by knockoffs of their knives, then they do indeed have a legally supportable complaint. However, I suspect that the great majority of Strider customers are not in the least pursuaded by the knockoff presence. Loveless knives are perhaps the most "knocked off" designs in knife history, yet I doubt if Loveless could demonstrate a financial loss due to their presence. I agree that there is indeed an "ego" impact and that the audacity of the knock-offs is very irritating and frustrating....but.....to conclude that there is a negative financial impact is a stretch....IMNSHO :footinmou
 
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