Bringing a pile of steel back to life!

[ndoghouse]

A few years ago we had a fire sweep through the town and of course my house was about half mile downwind from the ignition point. I did find my kitchen and first thing I looked for in the ashes next to my guns and a few other items was my knives. Here is a fraction of what I found and vowed I would somehow bring them back to life. I never found my Scrapyard Dogfather CG and some other large knives for some reason. but this is what I did find. Top down left to right: JA henkels Steak knives, Ax (no biggie), M1 bayonet, damascus staghorn bowie brass pommel and guard, JA henkels 8" chef knife, Cheapo Old hickory something or other?, 14" profesional JA Henkels chef knife, Camillus Khukri machette blank, Camillus Khukri carbon V blank with melted blob of aluminum, and another Camillus Khukri carbon V blank with many hours of hand filing and shaping entirely by hand. Urrrgh many hours there. Also many other knifemaking tools scribes, custom 2x72" belt sander from 8020 extrusion 2hp motor, sharpening steels, diamond hones....anyway was sickening to loose this stuff. SOOOOO! Today was a good day to turn things around finally!

I decided a good place to start was to the steak knife set (one missing). Since I have minimal equipment and no forge it might be possible to rebuild the small ones. Here is what I got to work with.

Map gas torch, can of motor oil, pliers (didnt need them), Magnet, (didnt need that either), and a stump. I found a sharpening steel I had fabricated a copper handle for that had melted around the steel so I know for fact that all this stuff had been baked at 2000 degrees minimum and annealed for about a week till it all cooled down enough for me to sift it out (yep i was barefoot).

The plan was to heat them then dunk them in the oil. Simple right! Nope. When I heated one part of the steel the other would cool so getting it uniform was impossible. I needed to keep heat on the tip while heating the bolster area so I decided to burn a pit in the stump and get it glowing red hot while heating the bolster at the same time and it worked well for the first knife. Cant tell in the pic because i was trying to get i pic but I did manage to get the edge very hot from bolster to tip and spine got less hot. I tried to point the flame so the belly of the knife would get the hottest like our Khuks are tempered and I be damned if it worked! I quench it in the can of motor oil and tested it for spring action and I was able to flex it considerably without bending it. Seemed simple enough so I repeated with the other two knives. Ha! Didn't work so well. They were definitely differentially treated. They would flex in one place and bend in the other. I finally figured out the right angle to hold the torch and get everything evenly heated and after the second and third try I got them all quenched. One is a bit springier than the other two but seemed fine!

I ran a file across one of them and the cheap chinese file would skate across like I hoped and the Nicholson file even had a hard time cutting but would do it! I then pushed on the sharpened edge and it did make a very small chip so they are in the oven right now getting heat treated at 450 degrees for a few hours.

If I can get them tempered enough to not chip I will one happy mofo! I have a piece of hard baked oakwood that was buried during the fire and is dense as heck so I am going to try to make handles from it if it looks reasonably good. If this works out well and even if it don't I am going to build a forge and do my chef knives next. Might even try the Khuks but really not so inspired to do them anymore since I found HI products. I can truly appreciate what the HI Kamis do and i haven't even began to touch what these guys can do. Hats off to the HI Kamis! Wish me luck my friends! Looks like ill need it!
​

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Awesome. Your own forge sounds great. Can't wait for the pictures!
Did you apply something to the blade to prevent them from oxidizing while heating, or is that only required while actually pounding them with a hammer?
Why did you not need the magnet? Did you just go by the color? I read somewhere it should be glowing cherry red before quenching. Some steel should be quenched in oil, others in "forced air" (whatever that means) and so on. Even the kind of oil can influence the results. Then the heat treatment against brittleness for some steels right after quenching, some a bit later. I think its as much art as it is science.
Cool that you could get your fixed.:thumbup:

 

[davidf99]

.... Did you apply something to the blade to prevent them from oxidizing while heating, or is that only required while actually pounding them with a hammer? Why did you not need the magnet? Did you just go by the color? I read somewhere it should be glowing cherry red before quenching. Some steel should be quenched in oil, others in "forced air" (whatever that means) and so on. Even the kind of oil can influence the results. Then the heat treatment against brittleness for some steels right after quenching, some a bit later. I think its as much art as it is science....

There's an article somewhere on the HI web site that quotes Bura saying that you pour water (from a teapot) along the edge of the blade and watch closely as the blade change colors. I think he said there are nine colors and if you get those right the differential hardening will be right.

If someone remembers where that article is, please post the link in this thread.

The Japanese have an entirely different technique, where they coat parts of the blade with clay before heating. I'm sure that this statement is a huge oversimplfication.

 

[philllll]

Very cool, ndoghouse!

 

[Steve Tall]

There's an article somewhere on the HI web site that quotes Bura saying that you pour water (from a teapot) along the edge of the blade and watch closely as the blade change colors. I think he said there are nine colors and if you get those right the differential hardening will be right.

If someone remembers where that article is, please post the link in this thread...

Written by Uncle Bill:

Water was the quenching medium for 2500 years or so. It was used in Nepal "since the beginning" and a kami's skill is largely passed down from one generation to the next. The hardening of the blade is really an art rather than a skill.

Bura was giving me a lesson in hardening a couple of years ago --"setting the pine" they call it. Pine = hardness.

Bura lectured as he did the work.

"Color is very important. See this color? The blade is not hot enough. See this color? The blade is too hot. See this color? It is just right. See the color at the tip? See the color at the cho? These all must be just right before you start to pour."

When the blade color was just right he began to pour from his pitcher.

"You cannot pour too fast and you cannot pour too slow. You must pour just the right amount at just the right speed. Watch the blade change color. You will see red, purple, green, in various shades and then black. If you do not see the color change seven times you have missed and must begin again. See it has changed three times already. There, again. And again. Again, and now it is black. It is finished and the blade pine is just where we want it to be. It is very hard here (pointing to the chopping area) and not as hard here and here (tip and bottom of blade). This knife is perfect."

I took a file to check the blade and Bura chuckled. "You are wasting your time," he said.

And I was.

--Bill Martino, 5/2002

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/kami.html

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Thanks Steve
Nice, from the description even this art could be boiled down to specific numbers if one would be willing to make the effort.
Not too much or too little water? The flow in ml/s (volume per time) would be easier to replicate. For consistency the water should have the same temperature and not in winter be half frozen and in Summer almost steaming etc...
Colors of steel are an acceptable approximation as its hard to measure its real temperature in any other way.
I am sure there are a bunch of other little but important details which one could learn by just watching the Kamis do their magic.

If I would want to diferentially heat something I wouldn't trust me pouring the right amount of water on the right spot for the right time while dealing with glowing hot steel I would just dip the belly of the Kuk into water for a defined time. If that makes the sweet spot too big then I would prefer the clay method used in Katanas which davidf99 mentioned.

 

[Bawanna]

I think the process is lost when you try to apply science. That's why Kami's spend their whole life learning how to do this stuff. Part of the magic of these blades.

I can't imagine how long it too originally to figure out exactly what all needs to happen like with the colors and stuff. Whatever the case they seem to have it figured out perfectly.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I can't imagine how long it too originally to figure out exactly what all needs to happen like with the colors and stuff. Whatever the case they seem to have it figured out perfectly.

Thats true. Back then they didnt have internet and the public library was probably a miss too when it came to books on how to make blades

If they "figure out something perfectly", isn't that science and not magic? Don't see how the "process gets lost there" All I would like is that what they figured out perfectly would be expressed in numbers which make it easier for new Kamis for example to repeat the process. Pour half a liter on this portion of the blade for 2 seconds sounds much better than "not too much or not too little" which will take the new guy 10 times as long to figure out. Time which he could spend to learn other things or even think about improving the process.

 

[ndoghouse]

Awesome. Your own forge sounds great. Can't wait for the pictures!
Did you apply something to the blade to prevent them from oxidizing while heating, or is that only required while actually pounding them with a hammer?

Dont think you need to worry about oxidizing while pounding or quenching. When they forge pieces together like Damascus or pattern welding as they call it then you can use borax but that is more of a flux to ensure the two surfaces are clean so they will "weld" without slag pockets or entrapped other crap. Same principal as soldering using pine resin to separate the dross.

Why did you not need the magnet? Did you just go by the color? I read somewhere it should be glowing cherry red before quenching. Some steel should be quenched in oil, others in "forced air" (whatever that means) and so on. Even the kind of oil can influence the results. Then the heat treatment against brittleness for some steels right after quenching, some a bit later. I think its as much art as it is science.
Cool that you could get your fixed.:thumbup:

Actually i did use the magnet once to verify I had the right color programmed in my brain but once you see the color it is not needed. The hard part was getting the color uniform across the edge and enough of the spine to give it springiness. There are many ways to do the quenching. I was just using what tools I have available. I cannot even try to do a water quench yet like the Kamis do. Id give my left gonad to spend a month with one of them but thats probably not even enough time to get started? Sounds pretty involved. Basic idea from my readings and understandings is getting the steel the right temperature in the right places for the right amount of time regardless of how you do it. Samaris' put clay on the back so when they quench it the spines added mass from the clay allows it to cool slower than the edge so you get a softer spine that will flex and a harder edge that will stay sharp. Kamis figured out how to quench with water because it is what they had. Well i had a stump and some used motor oil:thumbup: This is new to me so we will see. I havent tested the edge for temper yet but will do so soon as I get off the 'puter. I do want to learn to water quench but I need a proper forge first before I try anything with the larger pieces. I think I read somewhere about a wire trick used to test the edge for brittleness and flex. Pressing the edge against a wire on a hard surface to see if it flexes back, chips or stays bent? Something like that? I think I can do that? I dont think I tempered it long enough (2 hours) because my wife needed the pizza oven! Who knows what temp it really was. Hi tech eh!
Keep in mind my friends I dont know what the heck im doing so don't go out and try this at home sayin ndog told me how Im open to any input if im doing something wrong!

 

[ndoghouse]

You mean like CS does? Actually you might be surprised how accurate the color trick is to a trained eye. They then don't have to worry about keeping batteries in their thermometers and hiring someone just to keep the machinery running. Since everything is in their heads it may seem like magic but there is a lot of good science going on there. When a person doesn't understand something it is easy to say well its magic and leave it at that.

Thats true. Back then they didnt have internet and the public library was probably a miss too when it came to books on how to make blades

If they "figure out something perfectly", isn't that science and not magic? Don't see how the "process gets lost there" All I would like is that what they figured out perfectly would be expressed in numbers which make it easier for new Kamis for example to repeat the process. Pour half a liter on this portion of the blade for 2 seconds sounds much better than "not too much or not too little" which will take the new guy 10 times as long to figure out. Time which he could spend to learn other things or even think about improving the process.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Color is good. Had learned about it in Chemistry in High school. Wouldn't be surprised if CS uses that too.

I like quantifying things as much as possible for easier passing on of knowledge and room for experiments and maybe even improvements. Must be the scientist in me.

On the other side the more to the roots and self relying the better in my opinion. I give lots of points for effort If Kamis go out to get leaf springs they are better in my book than just buying steel stock. Now if they would have their own iron mine

 

[ndoghouse]

Color is good. Had learned about it in Chemistry in High school. Wouldn't be surprised if CS uses that too.

I like quantifying things as much as possible for easier passing on of knowledge and room for experiments and maybe even improvements. Must be the scientist in me.

On the other side the more to the roots and self relying the better in my opinion. I give lots of points for effort If Kamis go out to get leaf springs they are better in my book than just buying steel stock. Now if they would have their own iron mine

Yep Same here Jens! Eventually self reliance will be much more important in this world. Someday I believe it will cost us more to throw out the trash than it does to actually buy all the stuff and when this does happen the world will be a better place. We consume way more natural resources than we can generate. It will take a few generations for people to figure it out but I has to happen.
On a lighter note:

I cleaned no.1 up a bit and took out all the corroded pits from the edge with a cheapo carbide sharpener because this pile of steel was sitting around camping with me for several months in the weather after the fire. I then had to file some meat off the edge side of the bolster to make it flush with the edge. I Pressed it against a hardened rod and was able to see it flex in the light and it returned back to shape! WhoooHooo!!! I musta done something right:thumbup: Now heres the science of it all...can I do it again? You can see after I sanded some rust and crap from the blade where it is slightly bent. This because it was loose as a noodle before quenching. I thought I had it straight but I can see now I did not. You cannot tell just by looking down the spine so im leaving it as is. When it gets a polish I bet it will be invisible? Sometimes when you get a good deal on the internet on knives like this you dont know they are bent ever so slightly until you put the on the stone. Get what you pay for eh? I put a flat grind on it at first because I thought it would be easier to see the wire test results and check for straightness. Im calling this a "PASS"! I think I will finish one completely before I do the other two just so I know what Im getting into. Next is cutting some handle material. and tang cleaning.

 

[Steve Tall]

...If I would want to diferentially heat something I wouldn't trust me pouring the right amount of water on the right spot for the right time while dealing with glowing hot steel I would just dip the belly of the Kuk into water for a defined time. If that makes the sweet spot too big then I would prefer the clay method used in Katanas which davidf99 mentioned.

I think the kamis' method (pouring a stream of water onto the sweet spot) keeps the quench temperature fairly constant, compared to a "dunk quench" that would heat up and vaporize the water in the vicinity of the blade (making for a higher temperature and less contact with a liquid).

As I recall, the kamis don't then apply heat to the blade to temper it after the water quench. The residual heat from the rest of the blade heats up the sweet spot and effectively tempers it (while the whole blade cools down). I think it's a great way to achieve a differentially hardened blade, using simple methods and what's at hand.

Speaking of using what's at hand, kudos to ndoghouse for improvising a way to quench and temper those blades.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I think the kamis' method (pouring a stream of water onto the sweet spot) keeps the quench temperature fairly constant, compared to a "dunk quench" that would heat up and vaporize the water in the vicinity of the blade (making for a higher temperature and less contact with a liquid).

As I recall, the kamis don't then apply heat to the blade to temper it after the water quench. The residual heat from the rest of the blade heats up the sweet spot and effectively tempers it (while the whole blade cools down). I think it's a great way to achieve a differentially hardened blade, using simple methods and what's at hand.

Speaking of using what's at hand, kudos to ndoghouse for improvising a way to quench and temper those blades.

Even just partial dunking can indeed create isolating vapors just like my finger in liquid nitrogen doesn't freeze right away. However it could still be more consistent and repeatable than trying to pour by hand.
But if one really wants to then Pouring can also be done at a fixed volume flow. If the local water tap or pump is too inconsistent put a bucket at a fixed height, fill it always to the same level and have a hose of the same diameter leading out of it. The amount of water coming out per second should be fairly constant every time. Now you eliminated a lot of variables and only have to focus on where to apply the water stream and for how long.
That they don't require extra tempering is genius.

 

[greenwoods]

Nice to see all this work, ndog, I'm sorry that you had the fire. Cool that you are re-claiming stuff. You have enough wood scales for handles? I might have some extra that you could use, lemme know and i'll go through them.


Mark

 

[ndoghouse]

I think the kamis' method (pouring a stream of water onto the sweet spot) keeps the quench temperature fairly constant, compared to a "dunk quench" that would heat up and vaporize the water in the vicinity of the blade (making for a higher temperature and less contact with a liquid).

As I recall, the kamis don't then apply heat to the blade to temper it after the water quench. The residual heat from the rest of the blade heats up the sweet spot and effectively tempers it (while the whole blade cools down). I think it's a great way to achieve a differentially hardened blade, using simple methods and what's at hand.

Thats interesting and I have not even thought about that. So the surrounding mass of spine etc. has enough heat to do the tempering. Amazing! We just cannot let this knowledge escape us! Glad to know there are folks like us that can help keep this trade alive!:thumbup:
I do agree that moving water would prevent the insulation problem of vapor during quenching. Keeping water on the surface allows heat transfer. When I dunk quenched in oil i did keep it moving till the smoke and fire went out. It did smoke like heck and flare up but I expected it too.
Thanks for the kind offer greenwoods! Here is a piece of very old burly oak I found buried that didnt burn. I actually threw it in the woodstove for a sec but noticed how heavy and dense it was so I pulled it back out and kept it. Its cracked up pretty good but im going to try and map it out and see if I can get six scales out of it. There are many cracks and some rot but it is really beautiful. I polished a small piece and rubbed it with mineral oil just to get an idea.

 

[greenwoods]

Nice burl. We're in this together.
I get some very pretty wood from Woodman and Hoggie and other pals. I've lost things to fire and I'll help however i can.

Mark

 

[Bawanna]

Ndog, I have one of those M1 bayonets in mint condition. If you send me an address to mail it to I'll send it to ya.

 

[ndoghouse]

Im stumped Bawanna and dont know what to say but not surprised at your kindness! The M1 and another long bayonet M1941? was my first knives given to me by my dad. He brought them back from his military service. He was responsible for ordnance disposal of some kind. Never quite knew exactly what he did but he disposed of these knives in my hands and I was always fascinated by them.

Ndog, I have one of those M1 bayonets in mint condition. If you send me an address to mail it to I'll send it to ya.

Thanks greenwoods! I see your near lake Erie. Thats new territory for me. Ive been halfway around the world to the south but have never been north of Missouri. Southern boy I guess. Must be all kinds of old growth wood in that area. We have post oak, youpon, and a hell of a lot of weeds now. I had hundreds of old growth loblolly pines on my property and all but two are gone now. I have a heck of a lot of firewood now but not much for knife scale making.

 

[blue lander]

I'm really inspired by this thread. You took a disaster and turned it into an opportunity to learn a new skill. Very cool. What kind of forge do you intend to build? I've seen people make them from sand and bricks, looked pretty straightforward.

I do have to say there's nothing cheapo about Old Hickory knives, though. They're the only knives I've found that my wife can't destroy from prying half frozen chunks of meat apart. I probably use my Old Hick pairing knife more than any knife I own, and not just in the kitchen. Until I bought my KLVUK, I used their 12 inch butchers knife for trimming branches off trees and whatnot as well as BBQ duties.