British Service #2 for comparison

[Hans Asmussen]

(While the khukuri mentioned has not been bought from Himalayan Imports, but a German importer, this seems to be place best suited for khukuris. If it is inappropriate, please tell me.)

So, I have bought a British Service No. 2. The helpful importer told me to choose this for a first khukuri since "the Brits know what they do". It does sound convincing, yet it is funny to learn that British Service is used more as a tool. For combat, the Gurkhas seem to bring their own. Here are the stats, and I am curious to learn about others:

Overall length: 390mm
Blade length: 268mm
Length on top: 283mm
Grip length: 110mm (without the brass)
Drop: 75mm
Belly: 45mm
Width at ricasso: 11mm
Width at belly: 8mm
Center of gravity: 77mm (from bolster, almost on the very edge)
Weight: 580g

Grip is made from buffalo horn; rat-tail tang; end of handle is is oval, but ending in two points. There is a small decorative knob on the end of the handle which I have excluded from the measurements.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Please read this for general information on military khukuri. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...y-British-Military-Pattern-Gurkha-Issue-Kukri

 

[sweetcostarica]

...So, I have bought a British Service No. 2. The helpful importer told me to choose this for a first khukuri since "the Brits know what they do". It does sound convincing, yet it is funny to learn that British Service is used more as a tool. For combat, the Gurkhas seem to bring their own. Here are the stats, and I am curious to learn about others:

Overall length: 390mm (15.3 in)
Blade length: 268mm (10.5 in)
Length on top: 283mm (11.1 in)
Grip length: 110mm (without the brass) (4.3 in)
Drop: 75mm (2.9 in)
Belly: 45mm (1.7 in)
Width at ricasso: 11mm (.43 in)
Width at belly: 8mm (.31 in)
Center of gravity: 77mm (from bolster, almost on the very edge) (3 in)
Weight: 580g (20.5 oz)

Hello Mr. Hans Asmussen. Welcome to this forum.

First of all Hans when I started to learn about this knife called a Kukri I didn't know "heads or tails" about the business aspect to them. I just wanted a real Nepali Khukuri. What I know now and would like you to know is that generally there is now and has been going on for the past few years a "Kukri boom". Kukris are very, very popular these days. Not in Nepal (Kukris are used much less there) but overseas with foreigners like us.

"Since WW2 the Nepali Kukri has gone into decline for various reasons, such as deforestation, lack of hunting opportunities due to the ever decreasing wild animal population, laws forbidding the carry of blades over a certain length (not enforced in the hills), along with the decline of kami that are able to make good kukri." Quote from a forum.

Everyone and their brother is selling Kukris to foreigners. This competition has changed the Nepal Kukri into two forms:
1. The Real Traditional Kukris i.e. the ones used in Nepal: villagers and Military.
2. and The Export/Tourist Kukri sold to visitors in Nepal and many shipped overseas to feed the big demand for them.

The BSI/BAS or British Service Issue No. 1 (for parade) and No.2 (for work) is the most common Kukri that is made. According to Spiral the higher quality versions of this kukri are made by kami employed by the British army. He states: "They are normally marked "Ordep Nepal" with a date stamp. {Generally from the mid 1980s.} With superior fit & finish, they have a superior feel to the ones marketed today that I have handled."
Up to the 1980 these have 11 inch blades and weigh about 14 oz. to 17 oz.
Today's (1990's version) British Service Issue is shorter with a blade length of 10 1/4 inches and weighs between 17 oz and 19 oz. So it seems your Kukri is on the heavier and thicker side of the scale and was most likely made for the tourist market and not for Military or domestic use in Nepal. Not saying it is a bad knife, I'm just saying.

Below is a video of a review of some popular BSI/BAS Kukris. Check it out.
[video=youtube;mES3j-SR00A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mES3j-SR00A[/video]

Today's Service Issue No.1 or No. 2. is not a fighter. It's really just a camp knife. Today's Gurkha uses his more efficient automatic weapons to fight with anyway hence the military Kukri is getting smaller. My personal view (which I share with others) is that the pre-90's old style British Service Issue kukri, blade length: 29.5 cm, 5.2cm belly depth, and weight 450 to 480 grams, was/is a much better knife in fighting and utility. It looks a lot better too .

 

[Hans Asmussen]

Hello Mr. Hans Asmussen. Welcome to this forum.

Thanks for the welcome.

Everyone and their brother is selling Kukris to foreigners.

I am aware of that. And most claim to be suppliers of the Gurkhas.

Fortunately, fora like this exist where one can research the issue before buying. And that is what I did. The information here helped a lot. A similar site exists in German, and there they recommended a German importer for the quality of his goods. His story may sound familiar: went to Nepal, fell in love with the country, married a Nepalese from the kami caste, and became an importer of khukuris. And he is one of the few who says he sells British Service, but not that his kamis supply the Gurkhas. I understand though that this is the Himalayan Imports Cantina and I do not mean to advertise for the competition.

Actually, what I hope for is a comparison of the current interpretation (sounds terribly postmodern) of one of the most common khukuris. There is a trend to shorter, lighter, less wide and less curved blade. But I would like to know what different kamis have arrived at.

One of the points is to understand what is going on. In a way, a less curved - well, debatable - and less wide blade is a feature of khukuris where the role as a weapon features foremost. But shorter does not fit here. Lighter may or may not. The answer "camp blade" is intended to be a catch all. Yet, what does it really mean? Not that I dismiss your answer, I am afraid I do not understand it fully.

Today's Gurkha uses his more efficient automatic weapons to fight with anyway hence the military Kukri is getting smaller.

All sources indicate that there are three khukuris for a Gurkha: BAS 1, BAS 2, and the one he brings from home. I wonder when this trend started.

As for me, I got mine because it was labelled as a learner khukuri, so to speak. I specifically asked for one on he heavier side because I lack fine motoric skills...

 

[sweetcostarica]

That German importer sounds like a very honest man. Yes, a lot of Khukuri Houses say their kamis supply the Gurkhas. When the Nepal Military needs more khukuris it has companies bid on making the Army's/Gurkha's Service Number 1 and 2 for that time. I think most of the Kukri manufactures at least once has put in the lowest bit on purpose thereby taking a loss for that year just to say they supplied the Military. Other companies just lie and say they did. This is a big selling point as you know.

Yes, I was vague in using "camp blade". What I mean is with the decline of the Khukuri in Nepal, Kamis moving to the major cities for a better job = life, and the large demand for $100 USD (77 euros) kukris Nepali manufactures are not making traditional knives. They are making lower quality Kukris, putting out overly heavy blades, unbalanced work, using less man hours, grinding more than hammering, some of the worst companies use child Kami (from an Uncle Bill statement), etc. Most Kukri manufactures are looking at the business aspect of "supply the demand". They hurry production, sell an inferior product (compared the a traditional Kukri), and in many cases westernize the Knife heavily for western tastes and ideas.
Examples:
- more non-traditional full-tangs
- guards appearing on Kukris
- 2 lbs (907 grams) to 3 lbs (1361 grams) knives for general use
- overly thick spines
etc.
So saying the present British Service Issue is a basic camp knife is a little imprecise .

You stated: "All sources indicate that there are three khukuris for a Gurkha: BAS 1, BAS 2, and the one he brings from home. I wonder when this trend started". This trend is not recent but has been going on for a long, long time. From before WW1 Gurkha's used Kukris from home to fight with and their issued one for parades.

The military Marks and BAS/BSI ,the topic of our discussion, were not the only Kukri the Army and Gurkha's were given. They also had many of them handmade to their specifications by their inhouse Army/Gurkha Kami. There's a lot more history to this fascinating knife out there. That's part of the fun .

You also stated: "One of the points is to understand what is going on" You need to PM Karda or Yangdu (if she available) from Himalayan Imports for a view on this. They are your best source because they have been in Nepal and know what is really happening on the street.

Since few companies in Nepal make traditional Kukri for export anymore (I'm talking about real replicas in almost every way) I personally only buy from two Kukri manufacturers. Himalayan Imports (HI) is one the other shall remind nameless to respect this forum. Note: Not all the Kukris made by Himalayan Imports are traditionally designed which to me is a shame. Some leeway has been made for western members who like you "lack fine motoric skills" and so heavier and thicker blades are sold. But traditional methods of manufacture are used and any knife from HI is as tough as nails.

 

[Hans Asmussen]

First of all, thank you for the thoughtful and well researched points you make. I have read many threads here and on youtube and I think I understand you even better now. The most interesting part is that I am slowly learning what my own question is.

When the Nepal Military needs more khukuris it has companies bid on making the Army's/Gurkha's Service Number 1 and 2 for that time. I think most of the Kukri manufactures at least once has put in the lowest bit on purpose thereby taking a loss for that year just to say they supplied the Military. Other companies just lie and say they did. This is a big selling point as you know.

A lot of fake products, yes. And it also contains the important information that there are several Nepalese companies producing the genuine BAS/BSI because they actually equip the Gurkhas. There are two points made usually.


1. You do not get the real stuff, respectively it has been changed for Western customers.

There was a nice thread about Virtually Indestructible Sharpened Prybars. And I plead guilty, I want one of these, too, amongst others. Given that there is a wide range of khukuris between the BAS and those used for beheading buffalos, I think it is not entirely a Western wish. And it must be possible to compare the actual army issue with the one sold by quality suppliers. I wonder if there is really so much difference in the design.


2. The BAS is not what it used to be.

Well, and I happen to think that the Brits know what they do, especially when it comes to military matters. There must be a reason for the change. The focus may have changed, but I find it hard to believe that the current version is entirely useless. We were at this stage in our exchange already, and you have specified what you mean with camp knife. It made me realise that I, for one, like a good chopper. And I mistrust rating a khukuri based on martial arts which have not been field tested since a century or more - not that you did that.


So, I will offer another point:

3. What we get from quality suppliers is likely to be on the high end compared to historical khukuris.

These companies, as for instance Himalayan Imports, have had a lot of time to establish a continuously high level of craftsmanship and quality control, likely exceeding the life expectancy of a Nepalese kami a century ago. And the steel used is better than what they had in Nepal a century ago. It is funny that one rarely sees it mentioned.


So, all in all, yes the design has changed. And Westerners possibly get heavier versions with a thicker spine. I do not mind that. Actually, given the same functionality, I would say I'd prefer the heavier one to the lighter one up to a certain weight. And a larger handle is a must for me.


There is a point left, namely if the heavyweights we get in general are less balanced than khukuris used to be. It begs the question of what balance is supposed to mean, and I guess this will depend on the intended use. I hope for your reading your definition.

 

[Ang-Khola]

I asked myself the question a lot of times, why the old khukuris are so much lighter than the new khukuris which are made today and i may have an answer to that. The gurkhas back in the days were small and not so weighty men (of course they were excellent fighters and still are) and maybe they couldn't wield such a heavy blade, which is sold today. Westeners are often very tall and big and have the power to handle a big and heavy knife, which is probably more durable than the old thinner blades. The old blades of course were fine khukuris as well. The other point which came into my mind was, that back in the days they had to make a lot of khukuris for a lot of soldiers and steel was a rare product, so they made thinner blades to produce more khukuris. The full tang models that are very common today make the khukuris also heavier but also almost indestructible. These points are just my thoughts and i don't know if they are right, but therefore we have very nice forumites to discuss that with !

Regards ang-khola

 

[sweetcostarica]

Nothing wrong with wanting a "Virtually Indestructible Sharpened Prybar". That is a personal choice. But a lot of foreigners do not know what they really are getting from "Khukuri Houses. I mean the BIG problem is the tourist/export market is not up front with the costumer and give the impression: this is what Gurkha's use. The classic Kukri (i.e. proper weight, balance, size, thickness, etc.) is actually harder to make and takes a lot of skill to do it right.

Today's situation in Nepal is dire regarding the Kamis and traditional Kukri manufacture. So 1. It's hard to get a skilled Kami in Nepal and 2. The Kukri boom going on causes companies to lean toward unethical practices to compete with others.

Below Left picture by Berkeley' of HI and a Traditional Kukri Right is HI's 19th-century Style Dui Chirra Kukri


I love it when Himalayan Imports makes a traditional design in proper scale and weight. That Kukri tells people of the true culture and artistry of Nepal. But I understand the business aspect to all this and you have to make allowances for the non-traditional designs that most western people like. But let me say this: if you know how to use the BAS/BSI Service No. 1 then that is all you will ever need outdoors for your big knife chores (sacrificial work excluded).

For the record, let me be bold here and say the traditional plain carbon steel hidden tang Nepal kukri was tough but failed at times for various reasons. Whether from misuse or bad workmanship or just wearing out. Overbuilding a knife to be heavy duty and unbreakable is a good idea but you sacrifice a lot to get to that point. Either the knife will be heavy, thicker and unbalanced or it will have new space age lightweight materials that the average person couldn't afford it. Remember the Kukri was made for people that didn't and don't have lots of money. Hmmm ...selling a $100 USD full-tang Khukuri House Ang Khola to a Nepali farmer... maybe not going to happen.
You stated "What we get from quality suppliers is likely to be on the high end compared to historical khukuris" I agree 100%.

A lot of people's " intended use" of larger, heavier, thicker Kukris is as a heavy-duty chopper/splitter; that's a job being done today in Nepal by the axe. After most of these folks use the knife about two or three times the large, heavy Kukri goes on display or in a storage box in the attic and never heard of again. My intended use for the Kukri is to use it like a Nepali or a Gurkha would in bushcrafting. This is were the traditional designs shine. They are of good weight and balance and are multi-purpose so it is not just a lot a weight for a narrow function like the a fore mentioned indestructible sharpened prybar.

Below photo by Atlantia of a traditional 19th century Kukri

Remember this is all one man's opinion there are many different ones maybe coming after this one. The main thing is that you do what you like and can afford to.

Ciao Hans

 

[spiraltwista]

2. The BAS is not what it used to be.

Well, and I happen to think that the Brits know what they do, especially when it comes to military matters. There must be a reason for the change. The focus may have changed, but I find it hard to believe that the current version is entirely useless. We were at this stage in our exchange already, and you have specified what you mean with camp knife. It made me realise that I, for one, like a good chopper. And I mistrust rating a khukuri based on martial arts which have not been field tested since a century or more - not that you did that.

If you think the British army care about the equipment they issue there men I recomend you buy the current issue sa80 bayonet issued since 1987. It is a laughable weak easily broken one piece casting that could be made in China for $1...

spiral

 

[sweetcostarica]

If you think the British army care about the equipment they issue there men I recomend you buy the current issue sa80 issued since 1987. It is a laughable weak easily broken one piece casting that could be made in China for $1...

spiral

+1
Just saw a report in The Daily Mail Online that the SA80 is disliked by troops because of it's many, many problems and the British Army is close to scrapping it after years of complaints over its reliability.

 

[jdk1]

I asked myself the question a lot of times, why the old khukuris are so much lighter than the new khukuris which are made today and i may have an answer to that. The gurkhas back in the days were small and not so weighty men (of course they were excellent fighters and still are) and maybe they couldn't wield such a heavy blade, which is sold today. Westeners are often very tall and big and have the power to handle a big and heavy knife, which is probably more durable than the old thinner blades. The old blades of course were fine khukuris as well. The other point which came into my mind was, that back in the days they had to make a lot of khukuris for a lot of soldiers and steel was a rare product, so they made thinner blades to produce more khukuris. The full tang models that are very common today make the khukuris also heavier but also almost indestructible. These points are just my thoughts and i don't know if they are right, but therefore we have very nice forumites to discuss that with !

Regards ang-khola

This makes sense, but I don't believe it's the case. Reading the historical information, the Gurkha are described as being very powerfully built and stout. I don't know if this still applies, but can't imagine genetics changed that much in 100 years. Also, the pre-WWI military khukuri were larger and heavier than even the later WWI or WWII khuks, likely because the later khuks were no longer primary weapons. I think heavier khuks are made because that's what people want. That's what I wanted at first. I realized that for MY USE, lighter was better. A 17" 25 oz. ( even lighter is better) khukuri will do so much work and it's just easier for ME to handle. Additionally, I've been playing with machetes lately and hate to admit that they excel in every big blade cutting chore I've tried. The thin blades cut, slice, chop, etc. extremely well. Giant, thick blades have their use, but general woods/camp use isn't it to me. The lighter khuks offer a nice balance in function IMHO. I am much larger than the average Gurkha (or possibly any Gurkha), but I'm sure I don't share thier endurance. This is just for me though and YMMV. Take care.

 

[Karda]

Kami, both now and in the past will make khukuri according to the paying customers needs.
If a customer requests a fighting khukuri they make it to their specifications or the customers, depending on negotiation and price paid.
Same thing if a customer wants a khukuri that will chop wood, butcher an animal, make a sacrifice... etc.
The smaller lighter, faster khukuri that most seem so enamored with here are wartime khukuri (WWI & WWII,1800's arsenal khukri).They are meant mostly for usage as a weapon and are made for that purpose. If you use those historical pieces or ones made to those specs for very long you will see a marked difference in the longevity of the blade as compared to the khukuri made here.

Himalayan Imports has never claimed to make traditional nor wartime style khukuri. Our claim here is that we make the toughest khukuri made in the traditional manner with traditional materials suitable for bushcrafting and wood chopping with also the best warranty and customer service in the industry.

With all the complaining and smack talk i've seen, i have yet to see anyone write up specifications and pay the price for a special order to get what they would like to have.

 

[Ang-Khola]

I think the way himalayan imports do their khukuris, is just perfect! Such beautiful work and craftsmanship must not be dishonored and i have never met such nice people in a forum, like i met here in himalayan imports forum. I am still waiting for my order to arrive and i think, that i won't be anything less than overwhelmed by the khukuri. So for that, himalayan imports got a new and loyal customer !

 

[jdk1]

The smaller lighter, faster khukuri that most seem so enamored with here are wartime khukuri (WWI & WWII,1800's arsenal khukri).They are meant mostly for usage as a weapon and are made for that purpose. If you use those historical pieces or ones made to those specs for very long you will see a marked difference in the longevity of the blade as compared to the khukuri made here.

Himalayan Imports has never claimed to make traditional nor wartime style khukuri. Our claim here is that we make the toughest khukuri made in the traditional manner with traditional materials suitable for bushcrafting and wood chopping with also the best warranty and customer service in the industry.

With all the complaining and smack talk i've seen, i have yet to see anyone write up specifications and pay the price for a special order to get what they would like to have.

I hope I didn't upset anyone with my comment. My main HI WWII (16.5" and 25ish oz.) fits nicely into what I said worked well for me. Since I picked mine up, they've lost weight and I imagine they handle even better now. I can't comment on what's actually used in Nepal as I haven't a clue. My interests are mainly in the military khuks of the 20th century as they seemed meant to retain fighting usefulness as well as provide a good utility blade. Besides, many of us just enjoy the history of the World Wars. Take care.

 

[Karda]

No worries jdk1.

I just wanted to clarify the reasons things are done the way they are and that ones opinion may be right for them and different for someone else. In order to give unbiased opinion, one must leave preferences aside and look objectively. Each maker occupies a niche in the market and fills them well. Each khukuri also occupies a niche, and most fill their roles well if used with forethought and care.
I happen to like my sharpened prybars very much, despite them not being built to wartime specs, because when i use my khukuri i use them hard but thoughtfully. I don't mind a little extra weight as it lends itself better to my wood chopping needs. I like the fact that i've bought them from the best company for my purposes and that the warranty is for the life of the khukuri if used as intended without abuse.

 

[sweetcostarica]

I think the way himalayan imports do their khukuris, is just perfect! Such beautiful work and craftsmanship must not be dishonored and i have never met such nice people in a forum, like i met here in himalayan imports forum. I am still waiting for my order to arrive and i think, that i won't be anything less than overwhelmed by the khukuri. So for that, himalayan imports got a new and loyal customer !

This statement is why Himalayan Imports (HI) has been and will be successful. You create this kind of loyality by making a top quality product. No one can take that away for you.

As I said to you guys I'm a traditionalist and I love antique items of all types. When I got into Kukris, like many people we bought Khukuri House Knives or Kukri like objects (KLO). So after finding out that these knives really aren't the real deal I searched and found HI and another Kukri manufacturer (nameless because it's a competitor). For myself I have always wanted to buy and hold in my hand a German MP40, sit in a real Bond style British Aston Martin, be taught Kung Fu by a true Shaolin Monk, handle/inspect Drabya Shah's Sirupate, etc.

After seeing the beautiful reproductions of Himalayan Imports Dui Chirras, BAS/BSI, Some M43, and others I can't help but try to influence the manufacture of more of these true traditional Kukri to scale. Not only does this make me happy but promotes the cultural knife's design and the art of making it to these specifications.

But I know what the market wants and that's in line with what Karda said above. HI reputation for making the toughest Knives on the planet is huge and I wouldn't be so arrogant to try and tell these good people what to do. They know it better than I.

Again, Karda says ones opinion may be right for them and different for someone else. We all must remember this especially me.

 

[spiraltwista]

Edited my post about the rubbish sa80 as I meant the bayonet is particularily uninspiring.

spiral

 

[Howard Wallace]

I asked myself the question a lot of times, why the old khukuris are so much lighter than the new khukuris which are made today and i may have an answer to that. The gurkhas back in the days were small and not so weighty men (of course they were excellent fighters and still are) and maybe they couldn't wield such a heavy blade, which is sold today. Westeners are often very tall and big and have the power to handle a big and heavy knife, ...

One of the images of Nepal that has been with me for many decades, is that of a scrawny old man walking swiftly up a steep mountain trail, barefoot and carrying a doka (pack basket) much heavier than the expensive and fully loaded western pack I was carrying. The view was mostly from the rear as he was ascending much faster than I was.

 

[Hans Asmussen]

Kami, both now and in the past will make khukuri according to the paying customers needs.

With due respect, Karda, I will disagree with you on two accounts. Yes, there is smack talk going on, but I have checked fora, not just in English, and people spoke well of Himalayan Imports. You were the first quality supplier, and you have set the bar in many aspects. I am grateful for that.

Then, there is the old paradoxon of markets: the supplier tries to produce what the paying customer needs, but the customer can only by what the suppliers will offer. Given that background, it is pretty telling indeed that noone comes to you and asks for a supposedly more original khukuri.


Yet... why on earth would anyone buy something that is labeled as an ugly villager khukuri? The answer is twofold, it may be useful as a tool, and a romantic one: it comes from an old and living tradition. That is why I have ordered it.

 

[Karda]

With due respect, Karda, I will disagree with you on two accounts. Yes, there is smack talk going on, but I have checked fora, not just in English, and people spoke well of Himalayan Imports. You were the first quality supplier, and you have set the bar in many aspects. I am grateful for that.

Then, there is the old paradoxon of markets: the supplier tries to produce what the paying customer needs, but the customer can only by what the suppliers will offer. Given that background, it is pretty telling indeed that noone comes to you and asks for a supposedly more original khukuri.


Yet... why on earth would anyone buy something that is labeled as an ugly villager khukuri? The answer is twofold, it may be useful as a tool, and a romantic one: it comes from an old and living tradition. That is why I have ordered it.

In all actuality Hans,
H.I. produces more traditionally styled "original khukuri" than you might think. The Berkley Special (18th century), The Malla, The GRS.....the list goes on. Some people discount these models because they don't fit into their somewhat narrow view of what an "original" should be.
In actuality their ideal "original" khukuri is actually the byproduct of british influenced designs and were made for war, not everyday bushcrafting. They were made more or less as disposable items in bulk for issue to troops. In many cases, the troops given these items opted to take family heirlooms or private purchases into battle rather than the items issued them.
If you look back before the world wars, khukuri were actually larger than what you see during the wars. There were models suited for war, there were models suited for everyday usage of every kind. Swords and knives also. I surmise that the variation in style and weight variation back then, isnt all that much different than what we see today. To say that HI doesnt produce items that keep with the "Old and Living Traditions" is a rather narrow and arrogant minded view on the parts of some of these people claiming to be experts. To say that HI doesnt keep the traditions of nepali khukuri making alive is patently false.

What these people seem to want is a thinner lighter khukuri to use for Bushcrafting, wood splitting etc...
We have 10 models warranted for such usage. Many of the patterned after notable examples of "original" khukuri that you speak of, but built a bit heavier to conform to our need to have such in order to feel comfortable guaranteeing them for life. Much care is taken to assure that these items are made as tough as they can be made. They are also much more finely finished than most.