Broadsword Questions

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shanepruett

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Aug 9, 2015
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My father has always been very proud of our family name and its heritage, and went so far as to make CAD-CAM files for a broadsword and a wooden mock up, however other projects and incidents has not gone farther. It is my goal to present him with a blade (no handle) for Christmas. My father purchased 17-4ph food grade SS when he made the CAD files. My plan is to buy steel have it machined then have it heat treated at the foundry on my campus (yes I have approval). My questions are:
Should I stay with the 17-4ph SS or should I have a blank of "Damascus" made?
If I should go with Damascus I was considering having it made with W-2 and 440C, are there complications with this? Is there a better combination?
Should I have the blade Deferentially heat treated, or have the blade treated evenly?
I am looking for a functional blade not just a mantel-piece.
 
Stainless is not nearly as tough as simple carbon steels. A bar of 5160 or 80CRV2 would be way better and not even that expensive, like less than $40 for a four foot bar. All are easy to heat treat and it should be very easy to find a professional heat treater that can do it for you if your foundry can't do it. I'd forget any special differential heat treat and just focus on a very good thorough hardened blade at 55RC or so. Lots of post on those steels in sword dimensions online and also the ShopTalk forum . Good luck
 
There are a lot of excellent stainless knives, and a lot of broken stainless swords, a long stainless blade will probably break. Maybe there are some stainless steels that could make a decent sword, but if a non-stainless blade is polished and oiled and cared for it wont rust.

Good sword steels would be 1060, 5160, and other spring steels. You don't need anything with lots of carbon, you don't need the ultimate edge retention, you just need a tough carbon steel. A well made sword does not need to be sharp to cut, but if it isnt tough enough it will break.

You should also consider that high carbon steel is already very hard and super alloy steels will likely be even harder, they will be harder to grind and polish.
 
I'd be researching a dedicated swordsmith for this sort of thing and most of the good ones are busy.(you're going to have to move fast if you want by x-mas) All your questions could be answered on simple carbon,alloyed,stainless and the powdered steels(also remember some steels polish better than others as mentioned above it's important) By the way one of(if not) the largest razor blade manufactures in the world uses stainless steel for their razor blades. Good luck Lu.
 
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gadunz said:
It can't hold a decent edge. That's why razors aren't stainless.
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There is lots of bad information in this thread.

AEB-L has been used for razor blades since the 1920's. It is an stainless steel with excellent edge holding.

One example of a stainless steel that is tougher than carbon steel is Z-FiNit. It is a bearing steel that many companies used to replace 52100. We've been testing it extensively and cannot get it to chip.

Chuck
 
Chucks right on Z steel took a screaming edge (as good if not better than than 1095) I'm not sure why or how but it does.I didn't believe it till I tried.It's pricey tho.
 
There are so many things wrong with what you are saying. Lets go down the list

W2 and 440 C damascus? Thats not a thing. Damascus is not meant to get the best characteristics from two steels. Its supposed to look nice. Those two steel have VERY diffrent heat treating curves and rates of expansion and contraction so you would end up with a sword that was half hard half soft, half hard half exploded, or most likely have the sword rip itself apart as the layers expand at diffrent rates. most damascus is 15N20 1095/1084 for a reason. It works.

Using W2 or 440C in a sword: A TERRIBLE idea. W2 is a very hard and shallow hardening steel great for razors and smaller baldes but TERRIBLE for a sword. ITs on the birttle end of steel. Swords need tough steels like 5160.

A billet of damascus long enough to make a sword would also set you back a few thousand dollars. Just letting you know.

How good are you at CAD? It seems to me like you have no idea what you are doing and mare making the common mistake of thinking a sword is just a big peice of metal that you sharpen on two sides and anyone can make one. There is a reason good swords are really expensive. They are hard to make and harder to make well.

Why would you differentailly heat treat damascus? the main point of a DIF heat treat is a hamon. OSme people claim effectiveness but its 95% for the hamon, and a hamon on damascus would be strange...
 
Chuck, hows the toughness relative to impact resistance on the Z-finit? What kind of RC are we talking about here? Color me intrigued. 3V is my go-to right now.

OP, good luck. I'd say you're best off with 5160 if you have someone who is competent at heat treating a sword there. Hope they know how to deal with warp.
 
and a hamon on damascus would be strange
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By nature, traditionally made Japanese swords exhibit both pattern and hamon. It really isn't that odd for others as well. My photography sucks but here is a folder from Vince Evans circa January 1995. Likely L6 and 5160. Deferentially hardened and showing a hamon.

24g2ick.jpg


One can find folded blade stock from India and Pakaistan by the foot and if I looked , there is someone in Georgia or the Carolinas (iirc) that sells folded stock in various patterns and all the above not horrendously expensive. There is higher class stock available from folk such as Jerry Rados.

As to stainless steel, a lot depends on the smith and steel. Don't forget, 440c was a favorite for custom blade making well into the 1990s and some still use it. A quote from Barry Dawson re a katana bladfe that iirc, was 440c.

I couldn't help but remember with a slight smile that day also. Mike had made the mistake of mentioning an article he had just read about sword testing in Japan. I calmly walked over to where his heat treated Katana blade lie on the work bench and proceeded to tighten the end of the blade in the vice. His jaw must have dropped two inches when I began to bend the blade back. I could feel his chest tighten as I grunted against the strength of the blade. About the time he yelled, "What the Hell!!". I slowly released the blade, removed it quickly from the vice and handed it to him with an amused grin on my face. I calmly told him to look carefully down the length of the blade. "I'll be damned"! Mike exclaimed. "It's as straight as an arrow"

~~~~~~~~~

Now, far from me adding fuel to a growing fire, maybe it's time to take a step back and maybe remove feet from mouths about presenting one as an authority.

I don't know squat, in the larger picture of things but there is an enormous amount of information out there.

There are several swordmakers that use cnc machine to produce profile, bevels and distal taper. I wouldn't knock someones computer designed blade until I saw the specs but all in all, that wasn't what the OP was looking for. Sword steel types vary greatly and a combination for a longer blade with a hamon quite acheivable.

What a bunch of negative Nancys. Ok, that's a bit of a flame but I hope it was said in a positive way. :)

Cheers

GC
 
Typically, the hardness of a sword will be in the HRc 50 range (+ or -). This will give a functional, tough blade with the correct steel. The stainless you noted is martensitic, but usually is hardened to below HRc 40. Remember, a lot of ovens will not handle sword length steel and the treatment of the more exotic steels tend to be more difficult. I'd guess that steels like O-1 or A2, while not considered the optimal steels for swords will still provide a very functional blade with fewer problems. If you have the $$$$ there are a number of very competent swordsmiths on the forum.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
Chuck, hows the toughness relative to impact resistance on the Z-finit? What kind of RC are we talking about here? Color me intrigued. 3V is my go-to right now.
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I love 3V. It is my favorite steel. That being said, Z-FiNit is very impressive. We are using it at 59 HRC. I have to do more testing to determine how it rates with 3V.

Back to this thread. The purpose of differential heat treating is toughness, not to see a hamon. Steels that do not show a hamon are differential heat treated. W2 makes excellent large knives. Take a look a the knives made by MS Don Hansen for examples.

Chuck
 
The purpose of differential heat treating is toughness, not to see a hamon.
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As is true with Japanese blades showing a hamon. There are lots of ways and reasons to skin a cat. Softer core or spine, harder edge.

Cheers

GC
 
Everyone has seen this, but it's a good visual for why not stainless steel.

[video=youtube;1s0dRcdyizU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s0dRcdyizU[/video]
 
GWashington1732 said:
Everyone has seen this, but it's a good visual for why not stainless steel.
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It also shows the incredible lack of understanding on what can be a good sword and what is not. Take the old 420J stainless slab handle full tang katana that can chop down a tree without breaking and not really be a very good sword. "Good" of course being entirely subjective.

While being a funny and cautionary note, the dozen year old Shop At Home video leaves a lot to be desired in actually learning about steel and swords in general. The blanket line of "stainless steel sucks for swords" is fairly ignorant. Sure, there are much better steels, especially now. The amount of chromium in a lot of popular sword steels would probably shock a lot of unknowing (ignorant) people watching that video.

Anyway, there are lots of steel one can choose from.

Cheers

GC
 
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