Broken BK2

L

Lawrence Helm

Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Messages
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In case you missed it, there is a new thread over on General Knife discussion about a broken BK2:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-unicorn-quot-of-BK2s?p=13956669#post13956669

The conclusion most people reached was that it was a fluke -- pretty much the same as the one some of us reached about the KaBar 1217 that broke. Ethan Becker mentioned "stress risers" as contributing to the 1217 break and someone used that term about the BK2 break. I think in the KaBar discussion some concluded that it was safer to stick with the tougher BKs, but if the problems are due to anomalies in the manufacturing processes than we haven't really dealt with the relative toughness of these knives for those of us (most of us) who (fortunately) won't get the knives with anomalous problems.

Lawrence
 
Lawrence Helm said:
In case you missed it, there is a new thread over on General Knife discussion about a broken BK2:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-unicorn-quot-of-BK2s?p=13956669#post13956669

The conclusion most people reached was that it was a fluke -- pretty much the same as the one some of us reached about the KaBar 1217 that broke. Ethan Becker mentioned "stress risers" as contributing to the 1217 break and someone used that term about the BK2 break. I think in the KaBar discussion some concluded that it was safer to stick with the tougher BKs, but if the problems are due to anomalies in the manufacturing processes than we haven't really dealt with the relative toughness of these knives for those of us (most of us) who (fortunately) won't get the knives with anomalous problems.

Lawrence
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Ah, after I got off I saw that Jeepnjg came over from his general knife discussion and posted a photo of his broken BK2 here 7 seconds before I posted mine. Mine isn't entirely redundant I hope because I had a previous concern about the Ka-Bar 1217 and it was contrasted, to its detriment, with the BK knives. My argument is that manufacturing anomalies can happen in any manufacturing process. We had it happen in the manufacturing of aircraft but with so much at stake we tested and retested and hopefully weeded out and discarded all such defective parts. I doubt that any knife maker could afford that level of quality control; so we, the knife users, live with the occasional anomaly and send it back to the manufacturer.

Lawrence
 
I've beaten the living crap out of my 2 with nothing more than a smirk from it saying "Is that all you've got!?!?!?". I'd say exception to the rule syndrome. The 2 has a very proven track record.
 
user error.

never baton pine :D

ever!
 
Snakebreaker said:
I've beaten the living crap out of my 2 with nothing more than a smirk from it saying "Is that all you've got!?!?!?". I'd say exception to the rule syndrome. The 2 has a very proven track record.
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Could not agree more! I beat the crap out of mine every time we go camping and have no issues ever.
 
I've beat mine something serious , I think the bk2s that are going to fail like that do so early on due to an issue with the steel. I can't tell you how many times I've wailed on my bk2 through knotted wood and never had an issue. I haven't seen a lot of well used bk2s break like that so baton the snot out of your bk2 and if it doesn't break you should be good is my 2¢
 
Looking at the break it seems he was striking it at the handle not the blade end. That's not how to baton.
 
They are two completely different animals. The 2's design doesn't worry me.

1217s break. If you beat the snot out of them, the design is fundamentally set to break. I have a nice broken on my shelf, didn't make it very far at all. Can I send it back? No, batoning is abuse and usmcs break.

Does the hidden tang make it weak? No. It's how it's shouldered up against the the guard that does and only during abuse.

The 2 is designed to take this abuse. Do some break? Yes, some axes break too. All things break.

You will never be able to fully rely on one tool, especially a knife, for ever. Nor will any one of us be forced to survive some fictional doomsday when all civilization disappears either.

It's a fun game to play, But the reality is that you've been bitten and soon you'll own more than one Becker anyway so whoo.

Ps, nothing is directed specifically at you Mr. Helm.
 
stvpourciau said:
They are two completely different animals. The 2's design doesn't worry me.

1217s break. If you beat the snot out of them, the design is fundamentally set to break. I have a nice broken on my shelf, didn't make it very far at all. Can I send it back? No, batoning is abuse and usmcs break.

Does the hidden tang make it weak? No. It's how it's shouldered up against the the guard that does and only during abuse.

The 2 is designed to take this abuse. Do some break? Yes, some axes break too. All things break.

You will never be able to fully rely on one tool, especially a knife, for ever. Nor will any one of us be forced to survive some fictional doomsday when all civilization disappears either.

It's a fun game to play, But the reality is that you've been bitten and soon you'll own more than one Becker anyway so whoo.

Ps, nothing is directed specifically at you Mr. Helm.
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Stypourciau,

Your note was interesting and I didn't take any of what you wrote as directed at me.

I said something similar to what you did in regard to having more than one knife. The Ethan Becker idea that the BK2 could be your only knife if you could have only one in an Armageddon type situation. I argued that if such a situation occurred people would not leave their homes and go out into the woods but would band together and support one another -- something like that.

A quibble regarding the 1217 being designed to break. Engineering designs are often compromises. Undoubtedly a knife to be carried by Marines couldn't be too heavy so the design couldn't make the knife impervious to breakage, but it could make the chance of breakage extremely unlikely. And if it did break it could break at the stress riser which wouldn't hurt the Marine in the process -- something like that.

And you make an interesting assumption that I didn't make, namely that the guy who reported breaking his 1217 beat the snot out of it. He didn't admit to that, just accidentally hitting the handle while batoning, and I took him at his word, but you might be right. I don't know. But if he was just batoning, is batoning beating the snot out of a 1217? I personally would never use that knife for batoning, should I ever find myself needing to do that, but then I have a lot of knives. I don't know whether the owner of the 1217 has more knives or not. If one looks at the current warranty statement for the 1217 one doesn't see batoning mentioned -- at least not directly:

KA-BAR Knives warrants, to the original purchaser of the knife only, that this knife will be free from defects in material and craftsmanship under normal use and maintenance for the lifetime of the original purchaser. This limited warranty does not apply to any failure of, defect in, or damage to the knife caused by normal wear and tear or by improper use, including throwing the knife or using the blades as a can opener, chisel, pry bar, screwdriver, or digging tool or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed. If the knife fails to satisfy this limited warranty, the company will repair or replace the knife or substitute a knife of comparable value, at the company's option.
If you questioned KaBar they might have batoning included in the clause, "or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed"; I don't know.

Whoops: Just started walking downstairs to get my first cup of coffee when I realized the guy over on General Knife Discussions broke a BK2 and not a 1217. Someone else broke a 1217 recently and I got things twisted, but I'm going off to get the coffee anyway. ;-(

Lawrence
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Lawrence Helm said:
But if he was just batoning, is batoning beating the snot out of a 1217

Lawrence
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Yes.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with the design being put out in ww2 or that was a compromise in any way.

The blade put out was stout and more than ample for providing forces with a sturdy fixed blade for cutting task that may find it's way into a wayward jap or two.
 
One of the things I think we tend to forget is that the WWII generation did not expect as much from a knife as we tend to do now........ Not that they babied their blades but methinks we expect a lot more abuse tolerance today....... I baton with many of my knives that are not designed to perform this way........ I regularly baton small stuff with a Victorinox Rucksack BUT, I am damned gentle about it and have yet to tear one up......I usually lose them first....... My current EDC Ruck has lasted several years which is something of a record....... Knives should be able to baton but, they are NOT splitting wedges or froes....... Both of those tools are made of much softer steel which is more ductile and less prone to fracture...... Knots are a blade killer, especially pine and most especially hemlock...... I blew up a brand spanking new Plumb axe splitting hemlock and it was years before I read in Kephart that hemlock was a notorious axe killer....... It is both easier on the knife user and the knife itself if you burn knotty hard to split stuff more or less whole and exercise a bit of caution........ Mind you I have not always taken this advice from myself but, as I age, it seems more rational to go for the easy, low hanging fruit whenever possible.......

By the way with all your equipment, ALWAYS do the extreme stuff close to home and try to Baby the snot out of your equipment when you are not on a UPS route........ When the feces enter the ventilating system baby all your equipment as much as possible....... If I could I would X-ray, and do the flourescent dye tricks, etc on every blade but nobody would buy a knife that freaking expensive......

Ethan
 
Ethan Becker said:
One of the things I think we tend to forget is that the WWII generation did not expect as much from a knife as we tend to do now........ Not that they babied their blades but methinks we expect a lot more abuse tolerance today....... I baton with many of my knives that are not designed to perform this way........ I regularly baton small stuff with a Victorinox Rucksack BUT, I am damned gentle about it and have yet to tear one up......I usually lose them first....... My current EDC Ruck has lasted several years which is something of a record....... Knives should be able to baton but, they are NOT splitting wedges or froes....... Both of those tools are made of much softer steel which is more ductile and less prone to fracture...... Knots are a blade killer, especially pine and most especially hemlock...... I blew up a brand spanking new Plumb axe splitting hemlock and it was years before I read in Kephart that hemlock was a notorious axe killer....... It is both easier on the knife user and the knife itself if you burn knotty hard to split stuff more or less whole and exercise a bit of caution........ Mind you I have not always taken this advice from myself but, as I age, it seems more rational to go for the easy, low hanging fruit whenever possible.......

By the way with all your equipment, ALWAYS do the extreme stuff close to home and try to Baby the snot out of your equipment when you are not on a UPS route........ When the feces enter the ventilating system baby all your equipment as much as possible....... If I could I would X-ray, and do the flourescent dye tricks, etc on every blade but nobody would buy a knife that freaking expensive......

Ethan
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Well said. I tend to be harder on my blades in the back yard then out in the woods. If I do baton in the wild I usually use smaller spruce and usually dead standing wood to get dry stuff to start a fire. After that I cut the wood in smaller junks with a saw or axe....granted I have beaten the snot out of all my beckers in the back yard and have yet to have a oh s**t moment. I have bent/broken blades from ontario and tops in 1095 and had some nice chips/dents in a couple of esse's but have yet to do any serious damage to my beckers. Best all around blades out there. Good edge retention, easy to sharpen, great ergo's and just plain awesome looking.

Thanks to Mr Becker for great designs and Ka Bar for a great manufacture.

Cheers
 
I must be doing something wrong, In 40+ years I've lost more than a few but I've never broken a knife but I've always used them to cut and chop stuff and not double as a splitting wedge. Personally I don't get the cool factor in making little sticks out of big sticks with a knife when a hatchet works better and faster.

I've beat the holy beejezers out of BK-4's until my arm is wore out and they just laugh at me. Ka-Bar makes thousands of 2's there is always going to be a chance of a few unseen lemons escaping the tree.
 
Ethan Becker said:
One of the things I think we tend to forget is that the WWII generation did not expect as much from a knife as we tend to do now........ Not that they babied their blades but methinks we expect a lot more abuse tolerance today....... I baton with many of my knives that are not designed to perform this way........ I regularly baton small stuff with a Victorinox Rucksack BUT, I am damned gentle about it and have yet to tear one up......I usually lose them first....... My current EDC Ruck has lasted several years which is something of a record....... Knives should be able to baton but, they are NOT splitting wedges or froes....... Both of those tools are made of much softer steel which is more ductile and less prone to fracture...... Knots are a blade killer, especially pine and most especially hemlock...... I blew up a brand spanking new Plumb axe splitting hemlock and it was years before I read in Kephart that hemlock was a notorious axe killer....... It is both easier on the knife user and the knife itself if you burn knotty hard to split stuff more or less whole and exercise a bit of caution........ Mind you I have not always taken this advice from myself but, as I age, it seems more rational to go for the easy, low hanging fruit whenever possible.......

By the way with all your equipment, ALWAYS do the extreme stuff close to home and try to Baby the snot out of your equipment when you are not on a UPS route........ When the feces enter the ventilating system baby all your equipment as much as possible....... If I could I would X-ray, and do the flourescent dye tricks, etc on every blade but nobody would buy a knife that freaking expensive......

Ethan
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Ethan,

Your note got me thinking about fatigue and hard landings. In aircraft design these are major concerns. Aircraft structure in flight is always flexing and if you flex it enough it will crack; so manufacturers either check it periodically with a test approved by the FAA or remove and replace the structure after a certain number of flight hours, or both. I hadn't previously thought of Becker knives as being subject to cracking through repeated flexing, but there is a point where if you flex any metal enough, even a BK2, it will crack. When the fellow indicated that he broke his BK2 by accidentally hitting it on the handle while batoning, we never asked him how often he had used his BK2 for this.

What is more likely is what happens to another bit of aircraft structure. Landing gear structure is to be thoroughly checked after a single "hard landing." I can't remember the exact rules, but if landing gear structure endures too many hard landings (and the number was small) it the whole gear to be replaced. Hard landings have been known to break or crack very-strong landing-gear structure. It just occurred to me that landings affect aircraft metal in a similar manner to the way batoning affects knives. If the landing (or batoning) is some combination of hard enough and frequent enough, structure will crack.

Lawrence

Lawrence
 
Very nicely put, Mr. Helm........ Beating a blade through a hard knot which will sometimes flex the edge area can, when the next blow hits put incredible pressures on that area....... If the blade has enough hardness to cut and hold an edge it will be more brittle than an axe or froe...... Axes are usually in the low to mid fifties and froes usually less(based on my relatively limited experience with froes). This is somewhat unrelated to the instant problem which I suspect will be a more or less freak incident in heat treat.........

Ethan
 
Very nicely put, Mr. Helm........ Beating a blade through a hard knot which will sometimes flex the edge area can, when the next blow hits put incredible pressures on that area....... If the blade has enough hardness to cut and hold an edge it will be more brittle than an axe or froe...... Axes are usually in the low to mid fifties and froes usually less(based on my relatively limited experience with froes). This is somewhat unrelated to the instant problem which I suspect will be a more or less freak incident in heat treat.........

Ethan
 
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