bronze phosphor washers?

K

krprice84

Joined
Mar 12, 2014
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326
First I want to say, I just got my first xm-18, a slicer 3.5" with black/blue scale and bronze ti hardware. I freaking love it. It hasn't left my pocket since I got it. I was so enthralled with it that I left my phone in my truck, being in such a hurry to get it inside and play with it. It was also the first night since I have owned a smart phone that I went to sleep without it by my bed (simply too busy playing with the xm-18 to go to the truck and get it, didn't want to miss the extra minute with my new baby).

That now aside, I had to ask this. It is not meant as a knock to the knife, just a question. Please guess, I love this knife so much I just bought anther one which is on the way here, but I wanted to ask this. I also went through the last twelve pages of this forum looking for an answer and didn't find it.

So the question and reason for it. Is there a reason that RHK doesn't use bronze phosphor (or even Ikbs style bearings) on the pivot of the knife, and goes with Teflon instead? I personally have found bronze phosphor easier to make very smooth and easy to open. I've found it generally provides smoother flipping, especially after I pull the knife apart and hand polish to about 0.25 micron, the bronze phosphor washers. The only thing that has got me thinking about this knife is the washers. Now I admit, I am quite the perfectionist when it comes to having any blade play. I will gladly take the time to adjust the pivot by less than even a few degrees at a time if I have to, inn order to get the absolute lightest and smoothest action with zero blade play (by blade play I mean, blade open, but thumb holding lock bar off lock face to allow the blade complete freedom).

I have found so far that my xm-18 isn't quite as quick opening with the footer, and takes a little more force, than most of my knives with hand polished bronze phosphor washers. Now given, that is done by hand by myself and is not factory - those knives all were far far worse in this and every other department, than the xm-18 in the factory state. I'm just wondering what the reason is for going with the Teflon/plastic washers, as I'm sure with all of the thought and whatnot that Rick puts into his knives, this was not a choice taken by random, it was by design. I will also say that after playing with it for a while, taking it all down and cleaning again, and lubing it again, it is Mich another and quite nice. I just have to wonder if I can make it another by getting some bronze phosphor washers... So I'm wondering also, if this has been tried by anyone? (If this question is not ok here, please tell me and I will delete this part, but please don't lock the thread as I really would like to know the reason for the washer material choice).

Also is there any talk of a bearing system in the future RHK knives?

Finally, does anyone have any other tips for getting it even smoother? I really got spoiled with the action of my zt0561 and its bearings, and I know that this xm-18 can be made to be close to that, I just want some input as to how you guys smooth it up some? Or is it just breaking in of the knife?

Thanks in advance, and I'm super stoked to be part of this elite club now! Now to find a Wharncliffe to go with my slicer and my Spanto (which should be here later this week!!)
 
Congrats on your xm. You will find a lot of wonderful information in the stickies at the top of the Hinderer forum. There are also quite a few older threads that cover this topic. If you do some digging you will find them. :) try nano oil or any other really good lube and micro adjustments to your pivot. Once you get it dialed in it will be as smooth as butter.
 
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K84, Jensen gave some great advice, this topic has been addressed many times, reading the stickies and search will answer all of your concerns.

Just to bring you up,to speed to diminish your immediate concerns here is a couple of tidbits of information that may help you. The Teflon washers are used over bronze phosphor because Teflon is very slippery in its natural state and really doesn't require any lubrication to function, remember Rick designed it to be used in harsh environments where a ball bearing system or bronze washers would not react very well with sand, mud, cold, and water.

As Rob O has answered many times this knife opens three ways, the flipper, thumb studs or blade stops and inertia. This knife wasn't designed to appeal to the armchair user who just sits and flips his knife open repeatedly. Many makers know there is a market for this type of user and they design their knife around this type of demand. They do R&D to accommodate this demand, IKBS, bronze washers, stiffer detent assisted opening any anything just to make the knife fire open super fast. That is not what this knife is about. Don't get me wrong the Gen 4 will pop open with the flipper with ease once you dial in that sweet spot on the pivot.

This knife was primarily designed for the demands of firefighters, Leo's and the military. Thicker blade, spanto grind, beefy standoffs, open construction, flipper or more importantly finger guard,thick titanium lockside, lock bar stabalizer, thumb stud or blade stops to prevent lateral movement once blade is deployed, steeper bevel on edge of blade, these and many more features. Like Rob Orlando has said numerous times these knives aren't for everyone, but I can tell you from personal experience as LEO and cross military operations in situations where equipment failure is not an option the last thing I worry about in my Hinderer XM is how fast it fires open. I know unequivocally when I call on my knife to perform tasks not associated with its job description that it won't let me down.

So my friend enjoy your XM and know that Rick designed and made a knife that will perform its intended tasks and still will satisfy those who sit on their couch and flip and close, flip and close, flip and .....
 
Perhaps XM-18s aren't for you. It is designed to be a work knife. Rick's background is a Firefighter and a farrier. I don't see pivot bearings in RHK's future.
 
You can polish the blade side of the bronze washers with a Spyderco Sharpmaker extra fine triangular prism. Put a washer on your finger tip and polish it with the stone, rotating frequently. The high spots will get a mirror finish. You don't have to polish the whole surface. 50% is sufficient. A partially polished surface will have less friction than a fully polished one.
 
Hammer said:
Perhaps XM-18s aren't for you. It is designed to be a work knife. Rick's background is a Firefighter and a farrier. I don't see pivot bearings in RHK's future.
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Woah there..... don't mean to be offensive in any way, but did you read the post? Like at all? I figured, when I was writing it, that I was really really clear that I more than loved this knife, that it hasn't left my pocket side I got it, and that I've got another one coming in the mail right now.

I also thought I was pretty clear that I want insulting or calling anyone out, and was just asking an honest and simple question. I just am wondering what the reasoning behind Teflon style washers is? As I said above, there was obviously more thought put into Rick's knives than probably most any other knives on the production/semi-custom market, and I'm just asking if anyone knows or has a hunch what that reason was. I'm sure there is a good one, and I'd just like to know, that's all. I have no intention of getting rid of this or the next (or the ones after that) knives, just asking about them.

To Jensen and fo, thanks for the answers guys! I guess I just didn't go far enough back. I went, like I said, at least twelve pages back and didn't see the info I wanted. I did see some threads about adjusting (and in the stickies, which I did read through actually) but nothing in depth. I definitely had/have already gotten my knife to have what I would consider perfect action, using Nitro Lube and micro adjusting the tension. At this point I would say I have now got it to the point where I'm more than happy with the action, and it's on par with anything else I've got without bearings. Obviously expecting a complete lack of friction, such as what the zt0561 comes close to, is not realistic. I assume the reason that bearings are not (may never be?) Used is that they will inherently require more maintenance and eventually will require replacing of a much more complex component compared to swapping out Teflon washers when they eventually go? I guess I just brought it up to discuss, not to say it is necessarily a good idea for RHK knives, but to say I, personally, would love it to be at least looked at as an idea for the future, if Rick decides it's worth investigating. Maybe not something like zt uses, since the Teflon cage will wear out and turn to mush at some point, but something like a Teflon impregnated bronze or even tool steel cage maybe? Totally just throwing out an idea, maybe there's a reason I haven't thought of that this isn't a good idea for RHK knives, in which case, it won't happen and I'm totally ok with every one of them that I buy on the future to use Teflon washers.....

Finally, if this isn't the right place (and I missed it in the sticky) to discuss ideas for future knives, then I'm sorry and I'd politely request that this thread gets locked. If it is the right place to foster and discuss new ideas for an amazing brand of beautiful and functional tools, then awesome!
 
Also had to say, after reading your entire post Final, I completely understand and accept that these knives are designed for a purpose which I will never see mine used on. Well they be used hard? Absolutely! But not likely in a life and death situation....mostly when I'm doing day to day stuff either in the bush in my trucks, when a fixed blade isn't called for or convenient, or at my job (instrument technician in the oil field industry here in Alberta). But as mentioned in my above post, I've got it dialed in to the point where I really like it now and I'm more than happy with the performance of it etc.
 
tiguy7 said:
You can polish the blade side of the bronze washers with a Spyderco Sharpmaker extra fine triangular prism. Put a washer on your finger tip and polish it with the stone, rotating frequently. The high spots will get a mirror finish. You don't have to polish the whole surface. 50% is sufficient. A partially polished surface will have less friction than a fully polished one.
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Xm-18's don't have bronze washers to polish, hence my question about why the choice of Teflon washers, as I knew there was a reason.

And yea, the sharp maker works alright....I tend to use micron grade polishing paper in increasingly fine grades, finishing with a polish on a strop with then without compound. This is of course going to an extreme, but I just like things to be as smooth as I can get them. I guess I figure, if it can be done, why not. It will still get used and used hard, and sooner or later the bronze washers get all scratched up from use, but to me my knives are akin to a performance vehicle - I'd like it as finely tuned as I can get it, and an happy to play with it until it's right there.
 
krprice84 said:
Also had to say, after reading your entire post Final, I completely understand and accept that these knives are designed for a purpose which I will never see mine used on. Well they be used hard? Absolutely! But not likely in a life and death situation....mostly when I'm doing day to day stuff either in the bush in my trucks, when a fixed blade isn't called for or convenient, or at my job (instrument technician in the oil field industry here in Alberta). But as mentioned in my above post, I've got it dialed in to the point where I really like it now and I'm more than happy with the performance of it etc.
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Looks like your XM should serve you well in that harsh environment, enjoy one of the finest made folders in the world !
 
It absolutely will! I like the full ti construction (down to the hardware, except the pivot bushing/pin and blade stop, which obviously have to be made of something harder and tougher/wear resistant than ti) as it ensures much more corrosion resistance, especially if I'm around sour plants (hydrogen sulphide gas, among other nasties). Means I know I can have it in my pocket at all times and never have to worry about some high carbon or even aluminum component getting ruined.

I think I just found an answer (one of many I'm sure) to the bronze phosphor question I posed..... Teflon is intently very corrosion resistant; bronze is not. In an H2s environment, or other similarly corrosive environments, the Teflon will stand up far, far better than would bronze phosphor, over years of use, abuse, and subjecting to seriously corrosive substances.... right on!

But yes, I am severely enjoying this knife. Am on the lookout now for a decent deal on a Wharncliffe to complete my production xm-18 3.5" lineup, and also will be looking for at least one 3" slicer and a 4" Spanto (of course we all know that the end will not remotely be there lol
 
Flip it, flip it...repeat and flip some more.

It will break in over time. I had an XM that had lock-stick and in general was not that smooth. I took it apart, cleaned and lubed it, and used it. Now it is the best flipper in my rotation. The easy reason for teflon is that the system will never fail. They are great knives, and congrats on the new blade (s).
 
I was the prior owner of the knife and the way i opened it was to start opening it with the Flipper and use the thumb studs to open it the rest of the way. Works Great!! I agree with what the others have said, they are not the best Flippers but it sure wont fail when you need it the Most. Glad you like it!
 
mquez said:
I was the prior owner of the knife and the way i opened it was to start opening it with the Flipper and use the thumb studs to open it the rest of the way. Works Great!! I agree with what the others have said, they are not the best Flippers but it sure wont fail when you need it the Most. Glad you like it!
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Dude I love it! Thanks very much! Looking for a Wharncliffe now as I've got a Spanto arriving later this week. I've got this one tuned up now to the point I can flip it with the blade in any direction, the problem I was having at first was that if the blade had to travel against gravity it wouldn't make it the while way, but that's figured out now. Definitely made an addict out of me Mario!
 
It's all technique and fine tuning... Just as you've figured out!!! Once you do they flip just as good as any flipper IMO

Welcome to the Herd!!
 
Told Ya! I will have to post a picture of my Wharncliffe, for the knife porn effect. It will make you want one Now!! Also did you keep the lanyard it came with on? No big deal if you didn't, just want you to know it was a pain in the ass to figure out how to tie it lol.
 
Yup it definitely is the truth. Like I said above, the zt0561 does flip better, but it's got the bearing system which, obviously with it's many more small parts, is not going to last as long and will be less field serviceable, and likely less resistanT to chemicals etc. But even having said that, the tolerances are close and provide some of the smoothest non bearing action I've felt. I also very much like how the detent isn't crazy hard like the zt0561. That is probably my most hated aspect of the zt0561, I don't understand why it us so strong of a detent, unless it is either meant to break in or it was designed that way so the blade would whip open and lock with a crack instead of just sliding open nicely like the xm-18
 
Mario if you post it in my thread you then must sell it to me, my thread my rules lol. In fact I think just mentioning it means you should sell it to me (in all seriousness, post it up I love the way those wharnies look)
 
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