Brown Bagging (or rules against), How do you feel about it?

Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
13,363
Seems the interesting discussion threads that we have enjoyed and learned from here on
Blade Forums over the years have dropped off over past months.

So after reading Steven's announcement about this weekend's Pasadena Show and
"Brown Bagging" I thought I would start a thread addressing the policy against "Brown Bagging"
in general.

For anyone who doesn't know what Brown Bagging is, it's when show attendees bring knives to
shows with the intention of selling to the pool of buyers brought together by the efforts
and expense of the show promoters and table holders. Or other words creating (unfair) competition
for show sales against show table holders who in most cases have paid substantial money getting
to the show and renting their tables.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on these policies/rules and how they apply to collectors and
knifemakers, which I will share later.

Some shows have actually introduced the "Collector's Corners" concept which allows knife
collectors (only) to openly bring/show/sell knives between themselves.

Let's discuss this!
Knifemakers, collectors, show attendees, show promoters and tableholders
in general, please share your views and opinions on Knife Show "Brown Bagging" policies?

As always, thank you in advance for your interest and participation.
 
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Kevin, the "no brown bagging" rule is not that uncommon from what I have seen. Arguably, a rule against people who haven't paid for a table or booth selling in the show room is reasonable. This was a "no bags" rule. As a knife buyer or particularly a knife maker, you have to wonder how they expect you to carry your purchases as a minimum, especially if we are talking about supplies? We know that "private sales" happen a LOT a Blade, but they probably tend to happen outside of the show room in places like the pit. With that said, people do sometimes bring knives into the show to sell or trade with dealers. I have brought some of my own knives to Blade in the days before I had a table to show them to more experienced makers and get advice. The total ban on bags goes a bit far, IMO.
 
you can't bring your own popcorn to the movies.
 
I think it's okay for collectors to bring knives they want to sell as long as they don't sell them or try to promote them in the knife show itself. They can sell them in the hallway or in the hotel lobby or outside if they want, but not in the show. If they want to sell them in the show then they should just get a table to support the show. If they want to sell them anywhere else I think it's okay. Unless the hotel lobby or hallways have clearly stated rules against selling ones goods. These collectors who have come to sell a knife or two or three without a table and do it in the off time of the show or anytime outside the show itself are bringing more money into or around the show itself and if they sell a knife to another collector who is pleased with said purchase then they're also making more collectors who have come to the show happy with the show and happy about coming. I also realize there are downfalls to all this too, but to me it seems the benefits are greater then the downfalls, again, as long as said dealings are not taking place in the knife show room itself. I do not see any problem with someone purchasing a knife at a show and then turning around and selling it in the same show. Doing that is making a profit for all involved in most cases. I don't think it's bad if someone tells a collector about some particular knife he/she has with them and that they can see it outside the show later if interested. This should be done with care and not overdone blatantly. One other thing; I don't think the show operators can "make" a collector leave his/her bag outside of the show. There are many, many collectors I know who need a bag for all the knives they're going to purchase and making them leave their bags out of the show would be taking away a simple freedom that one should be allowed to have at a knife show. Even if there are people who sell knives in the show without a table they are still bringing more money into the show. Someone sells a knife without a table for $1000 to a person who is very happy with said knife, then there's a good chance the fellow who came to the show and sold the knife without a table is going to purchase a knife right off a table holders table with the money from the previous knife sell and that table holder will be happy as will the brown bagging collector. I've seen this happen lots of times and it makes most everyone happy. Again, there are other ways that could turn out but this does happen. These are just some of my thoughts on knife show "brown bagging".

Have an awesome day everyone! :D
 
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What classifies someone as a "brown bagger"?

Is is someone who specifically goes to a show with the intent of selling knives without a table?

What about show attendees that enter lotteries for knives and then flip those knives on the show floor?

Is it acceptable to bring a knife to sell to a dealer?

When I started making knives I may have "brown bagged" a few shows to make money to put back into the business. Back then I did not have the quantity, quality or price point to make it cost effective to get a table.

Today with the internet, ebay, and knife forums anyone can sell their first few knives without leaving home. You can also build a client base so when you do your first show it's not a bust or break even event.
 
it is very simply, put yourself in the place of a person who just payed $500 or ? for a table, $ for travel. food, promotion and misc.
Along come's someone who did pay for the show admission but not a table. Tableholder sees a cash deal going down feet from his or her table.

Take it outside of the venue and I have no problem with it, bring it into the show, the only exception would be those trying to sell their wares to a tableholder in the show (dealer or maker).

I have been attending shows from both sides of the table since 1987.
Dave
exquisiteknives.com
mastersmith.com
 
Lorien said:
you can't bring your own popcorn to the movies.
Click to expand...
You can at the multiplex at the mall near me.

I don't sell knives, so it does not affect me. It is up to the show promoters to decide and post the rules. But whatever the rules are, they should be followed. I have seen guys selling knives at Blade in the "food court" area at the back of the room. Not cool IMO.

If I paid for a table, I would not want freeloaders. However they permit this at all the gun shows I attend. Plus these folks don't have to do background checks either, so that NEVER made any damn sense to me.

Of course folks can sell whatever they want in the pit or anywhere outside the show area.

But if they start this crap that I can't even bring a travel bag with my toothbrush and change of clothes into the exhibit area, and they are not going to provide a place for me to safely check it, then that is pretty much going to keep me from attending these shows.
 
Ellis said:
it is very simply, put yourself in the place of a person who just payed $500 or ? for a table, $ for travel. food, promotion and misc.
Along come's someone who did pay for the show admission but not a table. Tableholder sees a cash deal going down feet from his or her table.

Take it outside of the venue and I have no problem with it, bring it into the show, the only exception would be those trying to sell their wares to a tableholder in the show (dealer or maker).

I have been attending shows from both sides of the table since 1987.
Dave
exquisiteknives.com
mastersmith.com
Click to expand...

Sums up my position.....this was not the case in my thread. When they said "no bags", they meant, no bags. If I had purchased 40 lbs of handle material, I would have been expected to carry them in vendor provided (read flimsy plastic or brown paper) bags. If the vendor had no bags, I would be SOL.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The problem, at least in my opinion, is where one draws the fine line when it comes to brown bagging. I generally agree with STeven and Dave on this. But there will always be a bit of commerce INSIDE the show, between good buddies, that usually finalizes OUTSIDE the show. But almost no one ever knows, because these these guys are pretty good at keeping it low key - and it's their reason for coming to the show - and these guys invariably buy from tableholders, too. Recognizing that this takes place, one still must write the rules to exclude it, however.

Now, when it comes to excluding bags altogether, you gotta have ur head up ur ass to do that. And any show that would require my bag to be inspected - well, that show would be a no-show for me.

Bob
 
I think my position is probably similar to what Dave and STeven have already said:

Brown bagging is not fair to table holders, but I think a "collector's corner" outside is a good idea !

the "no bag at all" strikes me as foolish, for all the reasons STeven illuminated...don't forget some shows have exhibitors selling things like grinding wheels and the like...which need a sturdy bag to hold.

In addition, I have brought handle material to shows to let makers with whom I have an order see the stuff in person - that way we can collaborate on what might work best without mailing things back and forth ! Don't think I could carry it all in my pockets :p

Bill
 
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Sounds pretty ridiculous to me. You can't keep people from making such deals. If they want to, they can simply tell one another what they have for sale and if they have interest in a deal, meet up at McDs at a given time. No bags necessary. But it gets worse. Now the money that the person might have made, and then spent at the show, isn't there to be spent. Who loses? Not the guy who sold his knife, nor the guy who got a deal on what he wanted, but the table holder who might have sold his knife to the first guy, except the first guy didn't have any money because he hadn't sold his blade yet...
If the person who bought a knife from another attendee bought that knife and not one on a table, it's probably because the one on the table wasn't what he wanted and he wouldn't have bought it anyway...
 
I have no problem with a person bringing a knife in for the purpose of selling said knife. It should occur over a table though. I have brought knives into a show I did not have a table at. The purpose was to have them critiqued by other makers. A NO bag at all policy is ludicrous. If a person is caught brown bagging then they should be asked to leave the show. I have seen prominent makers brown bag before and it put a bad taste in my mouth. It should also be up to the table holders to say something to those in violation of this rule.

Still no bags at all is not the way to go.
 
The brown baggers I dont care for are the ones that put their back pack on my table and start dragging out their wares with no regard to my knives or customers. Those should be asked to leave. We as table holders should be together so we can police that sort of thing. As for no bags brought in the show I cant imagine enforcement of that rule. I see some arguments coming big time which to me is the beginning of the end of that show. I've seen collectors with so many knives they need a bag, heck some have wheeled bags. Thats exciting to see.
 
I definitely don't like the "brown bagger" concept; they are trading knives for money without the overhead/risk.

I know a number of guys that scope out which dealers and friends will be in attendance and bring a bag of knives for barter/trade. I have no issue with this.

The policies I am seeing at this show seem to be ridiculous and arbitrarily applied; example: men cannot bring in a bags but women can. I saw people walk in with paper or plastic shopping bags but others couldn't enter if they had a pack, briefcase, etc...
 
The Virginian said:
You can at the multiplex at the mall near me.

I don't sell knives, so it does not affect me. It is up to the show promoters to decide and post the rules. But whatever the rules are, they should be followed. I have seen guys selling knives at Blade in the "food court" area at the back of the room. Not cool IMO.

If I paid for a table, I would not want freeloaders. However they permit this at all the gun shows I attend. Plus these folks don't have to do background checks either, so that NEVER made any damn sense to me.

Of course folks can sell whatever they want in the pit or anywhere outside the show area.

But if they start this crap that I can't even bring a travel bag with my toothbrush and change of clothes into the exhibit area, and they are not going to provide a place for me to safely check it, then that is pretty much going to keep me from attending these shows.
Click to expand...

that sounds like a movie theatre I'd prefer! I wouldn't abuse that fair policy by bringing extra popcorn and selling it, just enough for me and my family to enjoy while we're there. I'm sure most people are the same and share common sense. Too bad when some few trigger a tightening of policy, leaving us to enjoy only what popcorn is available at the concession. Gets stale after awhile, so it otherwise better be a good movie.
 
I view paying my table fee similar to the way I view paying taxes. It allows me the freedom to do business knowing that I am not being a burden on the other table holders. I try to first make sure I am doing what I, myself, am supposed to be doing in regards to fees. I feel I owe that to my fellow table holders. Besides, I dont like the idea of having to go to a hotel room to do business.

If a person operates as a given business and is attending a show for the obvious purpose of doing that business, he/she should rightfully expect to pay a table fee and support the over all show, especially if the show rules expressly require it. When you consider that there will be other people in the same business paying their fees like they are supposed to do, it should be clear that anyone refusing to pay their fair share is a brown bagger. Any other table holder who does business with a brown bagger should encourage them to pay the required fee and not force the show promoters to have to enforce the rules. A blatant brown bagger might be pushing away business from those who really want to do business with them otherwise.

The table fee, most of the time is a nominal amount that wont make or break a successful business already operating. A person who's business offers a quality product does not need to brown bag.


When it comes to literal bags, I have to have something to carry things in.
 
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How far do you take a "brown bag" rule? I watched a mother with a stroller get told that she couldn't bring the stroller in to the show "because the insurance doesn't allow it, due to theft". She was the wife of a table holder coming to visit her husband. If the insurance won't allow strollers or bags "due to theft", can I file a claim with the show promoter if a knife walks away??? NOPE!
 
I dont know, sounds wierd to me. A serious knifemaker who loves his trade and respects other makers would get a table and pass through the correct channels. Chances are also the guy who cant afford a table makes a lesser quality knife anyway. As for robbing clientelle? I wouldnt worry about it. You reap what you sew....

But yes, on the whole, if people are paying for tables, then only they should sell at the venue. Outside, anything goes.
 
I don't know about sellers; but as a buyer, I would be very apprehensive about buying anything from a guy who didn't have a table or display. The people who are selling authentic and/or quality merchandise are usually going to have a booth.

I liken it to buying a "Rolex" from a street vendor in New York... first, it can't possibly be genuine, probably isn't a quality item, and definitely wouldn't have a warranty or guarantee.

Now, if an attendee is just trying to sell or do a little horse-trading with a single or a couple of his own personal items, while shopping at the show, that doesn't seem like a big deal.

It's the guys trying to skirt the rules and make a profit without making the investment in a booth or table that seems a little swarthy.
 
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