Brushcraft Blades?

[Razor]

Why do most seem to have such a thick blade? Do you really need it? Am I missing something here? I have done alot of work with a thin blade SAK.

 

[udtjim]

I am with you on that thought, I can see the extra width for a chopper but myself, 1/8 inch thick blades are plenty wide for wood working. The Mora's work well for that duty and they are pretty thin. I also have no use for real thick hunting knives.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I don't think you've missed anything. Perhaps you are just not a bushcrafter.

There's a conspiracy of two factors.

1] There's a lot of knife makers that will tell you when you speak with them that they make them thick because that's what sells most. Often they know a thin blade will cut better but that's no good if people in their ignorance will not buy them.

2] As Lloyd hilariously stated “Bushcraft is basically a marketing catch word....it is still primarily a business logo...”

Wind the two together and you have a recipe that aims to sell items to people that they think they need not that are any better.

 

[Ravaillac]

Why do most seem to have such a thick blade? Do you really need it? Am I missing something here?

Well moras are about 2mm thick. I don't really call that thick. Also have many knives that are 3mm thick. At this point it is quite thick but still not outrageous. Above that, starts getting too thick for a short blade.

 

[Infi-del]

I thought most dedicated bushcraft blades were fairly thin. I mean you can really use any knife in the woods. But I've not seen a "Bushcraft" blade that was .25" thick. Most I've seen are 5/32 and under.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

The thicker the blade the greater the tradeoff to toughness and the ability to slice.

However, a 4mm blade, with the right edge geometry, will very well and still be very tough.

TF

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

I don't think you've missed anything. Perhaps you are just not a bushcrafter.

There's a conspiracy of two factors.

1] There's a lot of knife makers that will tell you when you speak with them that they make them thick because that's what sells most. Often they know a thin blade will cut better but that's no good if people in their ignorance will not buy them.

2] As Lloyd hilariously stated “Bushcraft is basically a marketing catch word....it is still primarily a business logo...”

Wind the two together and you have a recipe that aims to sell items to people that they think they need not that are any better.

Where do you get your information??

I get to play with a lot of guys that get a lot of dirt time. They don't tout it, they just do it. They get joy from using their knives, trying out each other's, seeing what works and what doesn't. Not myself or anyone I know that is into this refers to himself as a "bushcrafter". I think that it is a term used to describe the knives.

Generally a bushcraft blade is one that excels at shaping wood. It is not a chopper, nor a skinner or a slicer. It can do these things fine but there are better. I have used "bushcraft" blades from 1/16" thickness to 5/32" thick and all have met or exceeded my expectations. What matters is geometry, sharpness, and interface. Most times when a thicker stock is used it is moreso to give more girth in the handle. I also have never seen a 1/4" thick "bushcraft" blade.

1/8", 3mm, 4mm, 5/32" all work fine for me.

 

[beef]

Of course you need a 4mm blade. What if you find a car door in the bush that needs prying open? Your SAK would simply snap.

Maybe your best course of action is to continue to use your SAK for carving and carry a piece of 4mm steel for unexpected car door situations in the bush.

 

[baldtaco-II]

Where do you get your information??

I get to play with a lot of guys that get a lot of dirt time. They don't tout it, they just do it. They get joy from using their knives, trying out each other's, seeing what works and what doesn't. Not myself or anyone I know that is into this refers to himself as a "bushcrafter". I think that it is a term used to describe the knives.

Generally a bushcraft blade is one that excels at shaping wood. It is not a chopper, nor a skinner or a slicer. It can do these things fine but there are better. I have used "bushcraft" blades from 1/16" thickness to 5/32" thick and all have met or exceeded my expectations. What matters is geometry, sharpness, and interface. Most times when a thicker stock is used it is moreso to give more girth in the handle. I also have never seen a 1/4" thick "bushcraft" blade.

1/8", 3mm, 4mm, 5/32" all work fine for me.

Two areas really. The first is simply drawn from speaking with and observing knife makers interacting. I have my ears on at KF quite a lot for one.

For the second I drew on the below. Now I know it is lighthearted and humorous but there's more than a grain of truth in it. In fact I think Lloyd has had one of the best deliveries I've seen when it comes to trying to break down what is bushcraft, camp craft and survival. And that includes the times the topic has been rinsed here. Certainly a whole bunch of members on Bushcraft UK seemed to identify with it once they got wind of it. There's a thread running on it there.

It's worth mentioning that if you've had a sense of humor bypass the reference to the Polish might trip you. Hopefully not, that's not the spirit of the post that's for sure. Worth mentioning 'cos a couple on BCUK didn't seem to get that the joke was really on them than and the Polish actually come out as just some pretty adaptive folk – in the manner of the Off The Grid Threads.

Anyway, like I said, funny post but with moments of great insight. The Bushcraft UK bunch aren't blind to the “bushcraft marketing machine”. [There are threads on that there too].

 

[EMT_Lee]

Two areas really. The first is simply drawn from speaking with and observing knife makers interacting. I have my ears on at KF quite a lot for one.

For the second I drew on the below. Now I know it is lighthearted and humorous but there's more than a grain of truth in it. In fact I think Lloyd has had one of the best deliveries I've seen when it comes to trying to break down what is bushcraft, camp craft and survival. And that includes the times the topic has been rinsed here. Certainly a whole bunch of members on Bushcraft UK seemed to identify with it once they got wind of it. There's a thread running on it there.

It's worth mentioning that if you've had a sense of humor bypass the reference to the Polish might trip you. Hopefully not, that's not the spirit of the post that's for sure. Worth mentioning 'cos a couple on BCUK didn't seem to get that the joke was really on them than and the Polish actually come out as just some pretty adaptive folk – in the manner of the Off The Grid Threads.

Anyway, like I said, funny post but with moments of great insight. The Bushcraft UK bunch aren't blind to the “bushcraft marketing machine”. [There are threads on that there too].

Well, no offense intended, but Lyold seems like a real drag. And, I disagree with him. "Survival" doesnt always mean what he thinks it means. My grandparents, and their parents before them, and for generations before, scraped out a living in the hill country of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Most of the time, this meant living dirt poor. They had to hunt, and trap, and fish, to eat. They had to collect wild edibles, to eat. They had to fashion clothing, tools, etc. to live and survive. Does this mean they were in pyschological distress? Nope. Does this mean they were unhappy? Nope. But, it was damn sure survival. YMMV.

ETA: I should also point out that I, to this day, still live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. As does our esteemed mod, Joe Flowers. When we practice these wilderness "survival" skills, for pleasure instead of need, I feel that we're carrying on a proud tradition. Building snares and traps, hunting, fishing, woodcraft... these are practices and skills that are important to us, and we feel need to be alive and well.

 

[kgd]

Looks like this thread is heading in a bad direction too. What is that time of the month or something?

To the OP, I think it is safe to say that thick was a big trend in the cutlery world 2 years ago and is waning now. In 2009 the majority of 4" blades by custom makers in the for sale section have been 1/8" which is a great thickness. There are still a few makers like Koyote who prefer 3/32" which is also a great thickness to work with. If you went back to 2007 you would have found most 4" blades at 3/16" and a lot of them a 0.25".

Thickness of the spine really affects slicing but not necessarily cutting. It really depends on the grind and edge geometry. That 0.215" thick Bravo-1 will be as hair popping as a mora 2000. It just won't slice onions and carrots as effectively. Personally, I have liked both thick and thin small blades. There is something about the heft of a good solid chunk of metal. It just feels good. I never get that feeling with a mora. Sorry, I just don't. I know it cuts, so sometimes I do like my big chunks of metal. In some cases, like with the Izula at 5/64" thick, the thickness helps this skeletal knife offer a comfy handle. Neck knives less than 1/8" thick at the spine are uncomfortable to use both in handle and when pressing on the spine as in the case of notching.

 

[KiljoyKutlery]

its really not in the thickness of the spine anyway....its in the grind.
I have several 3/16" scandi BUSHCRAFTERS, and they work very well in wood..one has a somewhat stout scandi grind, yet it work wood fantastically. All you have to do is try out different styles and figure out what you like.
I think that MORA's are the platform into bushcraft blades anyways..and they are pretty thin, around 1/16" to 3/32", and they are pretty tough.
I will say, that although my EDC is the SAK Farmer, I dont trust the blade as my ONLY blade...they are pretty easy to break if you muff something up while working with them. If you are careful this shouldnt happen ofcourse, but stuff happens. My BOB always has something like a Javenpaa puukko or a BRKT Aurora in it...usually BOTH, and a small KUKRI. Plus I have an Camp Axe in the back of the Jeep...buried under my tools.

 

[baldtaco-II]

Well, no offense intended, but Lyold seems like a real drag. And, I disagree with him. "Survival" doesnt always mean what he thinks it means. My grandparents, and their parents before them, and for generations before, scraped out a living in the hill country of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Most of the time, this meant living dirt poor. They had to hunt, and trap, and fish, to eat. They had to collect wild edibles, to eat. They had to fashion clothing, tools, etc. to live and survive. Does this mean they were in pyschological distress? Nope. Does this mean they were unhappy? Nope. But, it was damn sure survival. YMMV.

ETA: I should also point out that I, to this day, still live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. As does our esteemed mod, Joe Flowers. When we practice these wilderness "survival" skills, for pleasure instead of need, I feel that we're carrying on a proud tradition. Building snares and traps, hunting, fishing, woodcraft... these are practices and skills that are important to us, and we feel need to be alive and well.

No offense take amigo. You have good points reasonably made, what's not to like.

I don't know Lloyd other than just another face at a forum I frequent. I have no reason to defend him as such, but I do think one shouldn't take him too literally. For sure he pokes at some things I rather enjoy but then I think it isn't much more than banter drawn from some underlying truths. Same kind friendly digs go on between climbers and cavers, and as I said the Bushcraft UK mob that one might expect to be a bit precious about their baby took it in good spirit. I'm sure at some point some wit will fire one back about the laziness of going by boat and not walking or something. I drew on that not because of its blistering accuracy rather more that stereotypes usually have a core of truth and in this case an underlying truth about the bushcraft marketing machine here. Lloyd touched on that in a fun way but in doing so he also drew attention to the huge marketing aspect that we here can all see is thrashed to death. When it comes to the point where you are on a bushscraft forum, and those there are mostly very keen on bushcraft, yet they have in numerous threads word to the effect “we know the bushcraft concept was mostly contrived just to sell more stuff, we used to be survivalists and before that ...” that one really can't ignore the some of the Emperor's New Clothes aspects. All good.

EDIT: added

For a better illustration here is a direct quote from a member at Bushcraft UK. It's fairly typical.


"These are the realities of bushcraft.

Yet *bushcraft* is being used as the descriptive term to push the most appalling load of tatt at times. It's become the new army surplus
There are some choice nuggets in the dross, but finding it can be hard going, and it's embarassing to have folks say, "Oh you'll like this; it's bushcrafty "...........and it's something like camouflage loo roll in a fake fur toy squirrel or a do everything survival knife with a can opener built in to the tip of the blade"

-Toddy

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Baldtaco-II

I don't think you've missed anything. Perhaps you are just not a bushcrafter.

There's a conspiracy of two factors.

1] There's a lot of knife makers that will tell you when you speak with them that they make them thick because that's what sells most. Often they know a thin blade will cut better but that's no good if people in their ignorance will not buy them.

2] As Lloyd hilariously stated “Bushcraft is basically a marketing catch word....it is still primarily a business logo...”

Wind the two together and you have a recipe that aims to sell items to people that they think they need not that are any better.

No.1 is simple commercial reality.

Unless they consider their knife making to be a charity exercise, how many custom makers would be able to continue if they couldn't at least cover their cost by being able to sell enough of what they make :thumbup:


No.2 addresses a much more involved issue.

When we talk about bushcraft, are we talking about what the term has traditionally meant (especially in countries where the term was originally coined, for example Australia ), or are we talking about what the term seems to have become commonly defined as, ie working wood with an edged tool?

I agree that the common use of the word "Bushcraft" has become a marketing tool. Just look at most outdoor oriented forums/subforums on the internet and the perception of what constitutes Bushcraft (although I do admit there are a few individuals who are exceptions to the rule :thumbup. It appears that "Bushcraft" only equates to working wood with edged tools (primarily knives, but occasionally you will see some mention of hatchets/axes and their uses). Having the "right knife" in the "right steel" from the "right maker" seems to have become more important than the skills to use the knife

Whilst I do acknowlede there is merits in appropriate tool selection, this is only a small part of what the term "Bushcraft" was orignally intended to describe. To back up what I say, let's look at just one other component of what I consider to be true Bushcraft and that is "edible & medicinal plants". Have a look at how posts on just one part of Bushcraft go down like a fart in an Elevator (on internet forums that relate to either "Wilderness & Survival skills" or "Outdoor Survival forums"). They quickly disapear into the ether due to lack of real interest

I read a lot, and remember all of what I read (sometimes I think this is a curse). IMO, the best description of what "Bushcraft" is meant to be is described by Richard Harry Greaves when he wrote:
""Bushcraft" describes the activity of how to make use of natural materials found locally in any area. It includes many of the skills used by primitive man, and to these are added "white man" skills necessary for survival, such as time and direction, and the provision of modern "white man" comforts. The practice of bushcraft develops in an individual a remarkable ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment." (Note: this quote has come from the dust cover to his "10 Bushcraft books", which BTW was available long before Korchanski was supposed to have "coined the term Bushcraft" and can be found here: http://tions.net/CA256EA900408BD5/vwWWW/outdoor~03~000

I enjoyed reading your quoted passage from Lloyd. It seems to me like he is writting from the perspective of someone who lives in the UK (please correct me if I'm wrong).

From the perspective of someone who lives in Australia and spends time in the wilderness, I must point out there is a difference over here.

Since most people have no idea what outdoor life here in Australia is like, I've included two maps ( I sourced from the internet), that claim to give an indication of the relative size of Australia compared to both Europe & USA.

Bear in mind our population is a little over 20 million people and that close to 60% of them live in the greater metropolitan area of 3 cities (ie Brisbane, Sydney & Melbourne). You'll soon get an idea of just how much sparsely (if not uninhabited) area is available to those who live outside the major cities.

True Bushcraft and all it encompasses is still very important over here to those who venture to the remote & uninhabited areas that lie outside of our cities :thumbup:

Rant off.....




To the OP.

Does it really matter how thick a blade is, as long as it gets the job done without significant additional effort?

Years ago I tried Moras on some of our seasoned hardwoods. I got sick & tired of removing chips & rolls from the supplied edges. I no longer own any Moras for Bushcraft.

Obviously, others milage may vary :thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick

 

[Ravaillac]

Since most people have no idea what outdoor life here in Australia is like, I've included two maps ( I sourced from the internet), that claim to give an indication of the relative size of Australia compared to both Europe & USA.

So true, and I mourn everyday on how small, and artificial "Wilderness" can be in "civilized" areas.

That said I also know that you can learn a good deal of thing in "a stand of 23 trees" or even your backyard and it is often saddening to see so many American/Canadian/Australian not having a clue about all the gold hey have at hand.

About the "Bushcraft term" I really don't care about it. I'll thank the Ray Mears guy for having revived my interest in Wilderness some years but I've quickly wandered away and that's with it. So call bushcraft good or bad, marketing or whatever, not my business.

As pointed by Llyod whoever he is, there are those "who want a higher status in the bushcraft community by rubbing sticks together" I equally despise those "who want a higher status in the much more common "internet armchair rebel community" by dumping infatuous "I'm so cynical" posts".

 

[mitchshrader]

For my taste an ideal woods knife is .2 thick, 4.5"- 5" blade, 5"-6" handle, single edged, convex ground, and tool steel hardened to 58-59 Rc.

Bark River makes some. I don't care what its called if it works, and I don't care what its called if it doesn't.

D2 and O1 are two of my favorite steels for outdoor use.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

For my taste an ideal woods knife is .2 thick, 4.5"- 5" blade, 5"-6" handle, single edged, convex ground, and tool steel hardened to 58-59 Rc.

Sounds like you like the BRKT Aurora (one of my favorites).

One that's had my attention recently is the Busse BOSS Street.
BOSS Street at bottom

4.25" long blade, 4 7/8" handle, .220 thick, INFI steel. Don't think the blade is fully convex, though. Of course you can send it to a few people (Bark River will even do it), and have it reground to full convex (also removing the coating), which I'm seriously thinking of doing.

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Ravaillac

So true, and I mourn everyday on how small, and artificial "Wilderness" can be in "civilized" areas.

That said I also know that you can learn a good deal of thing in "a stand of 23 trees" or even your backyard and it is often saddening to see so many American/Canadian/Australian not having a clue about all the gold hey have at hand.

About the "Bushcraft term" I really don't care about it. I'll thank the Ray Mears guy for having revived my interest in Wilderness some years but I've quickly wandered away and that's with it. So call bushcraft good or bad, marketing or whatever, not my business.

This is true, the disconnection with nature is not restricted to one country :thumbup:

We have people who know nothing but life in a big city, & their idea of the country is limited to Parks & Zoo's :thumbdn:

But I will point out, that you will not see these types posting on Outdoor related internet sites

In the past, I have acknowledged the role both Mr's Mears & Korchanski have played in increasing awareness and to some extent, knowldege of the great outdoors.

For what they each have to offer, they are both to be congratulated for taking the time & effort (although I have no doubt both have been financially rewarded for the effort) to increase interest & knowledge in the great outdoors. Are they the be end & all of Bushraft as I understand it.... I don't think so. But then again that's just my opinion




Kind regards
Mick

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

G'day Baldtaco-II





No.1 is simple commercial reality.

Unless they consider their knife making to be a charity exercise, how many custom makers would be able to continue if they couldn't at least cover their cost by being able to sell enough of what they make :thumbup:


No.2 addresses a much more involved issue.

When we talk about bushcraft, are we talking about what the term has traditionally meant (especially in countries where the term was originally coined, for example Australia ), or are we talking about what the term seems to have become commonly defined as, ie working wood with an edged tool?

I agree that the common use of the word "Bushcraft" has become a marketing tool. Just look at most outdoor oriented forums/subforums on the internet and the perception of what constitutes Bushcraft (although I do admit there are a few individuals who are exceptions to the rule :thumbup. It appears that "Bushcraft" only equates to working wood with edged tools (primarily knives, but occasionally you will see some mention of hatchets/axes and their uses). Having the "right knife" in the "right steel" from the "right maker" seems to have become more important than the skills to use the knife

Whilst I do acknowledge there is merits in appropriate tool selection, this is only a small part of what the term "Bushcraft" was originally intended to describe. To back up what I say, let's look at just one other component of what I consider to be true Bushcraft and that is "edible & medicinal plants". Have a look at how posts on just one part of Bushcraft go down like a fart in an Elevator (on internet forums that relate to either "Wilderness & Survival skills" or "Outdoor Survival forums"). They quickly disappear into the ether due to lack of real interest

I read a lot, and remember all of what I read (sometimes I think this is a curse). IMO, the best description of what "Bushcraft" is meant to be is described by Richard Harry Greaves when he wrote:
""Bushcraft" describes the activity of how to make use of natural materials found locally in any area. It includes many of the skills used by primitive man, and to these are added "white man" skills necessary for survival, such as time and direction, and the provision of modern "white man" comforts. The practice of bushcraft develops in an individual a remarkable ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment." (Note: this quote has come from the dust cover to his "10 Bushcraft books", which BTW was available long before Korchanski was supposed to have "coined the term Bushcraft" and can be found here: http://tions.net/CA256EA900408BD5/vwWWW/outdoor~03~000

I enjoyed reading your quoted passage from Lloyd. It seems to me like he is writing from the perspective of someone who lives in the UK (please correct me if I'm wrong).

From the perspective of someone who lives in Australia and spends time in the wilderness, I must point out there is a difference over here.

Since most people have no idea what outdoor life here in Australia is like, I've included two maps ( I sourced from the internet), that claim to give an indication of the relative size of Australia compared to both Europe & USA.

Bear in mind our population is a little over 20 million people and that close to 60% of them live in the greater metropolitan area of 3 cities (ie Brisbane, Sydney & Melbourne). You'll soon get an idea of just how much sparsely (if not uninhabited) area is available to those who live outside the major cities.

True Bushcraft and all it encompasses is still very important over here to those who venture to the remote & uninhabited areas that lie outside of our cities :thumbup:

Rant off.....




To the OP.

Does it really matter how thick a blade is, as long as it gets the job done without significant additional effort?

Years ago I tried Moras on some of our seasoned hardwoods. I got sick & tired of removing chips & rolls from the supplied edges. I no longer own any Moras for Bushcraft.

Obviously, others milage may vary :thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick

Well put S.C.
I just want to clarify that post was not meant to define "bushcraft", just what in means in reference to the knives themselves.

I am very interested in visiting Australia one day, especially to explore its natural areas. I am particularly interested in the southeastern mountains and forests. I understand that this is one of the areas most greatly affected by the drought of recent years.

 

[kahuana]

Probably the best definition of Bushcraft that I have seen so far. It refers more to a geographic and skills term than tool type:

Bushcraft
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Bushcraft is a long-term extension of survival skills. A popular term for wilderness skills in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, the term was popularised in the southern hemisphere by Les Hiddins (The Bush Tucker Man) in Australia as well as in the northern hemisphere by Mors Kochanski and recently gained considerable currency in the United Kingdom due to the popularity of Ray Mears and his bushcraft and survival television programmes. Bushcraft is about surviving and thriving in the natural environment, and the acquisition of ancient skills and knowledge to do so. Bushcraft skills include; firecraft, tracking, hunting, shelter building, the use of tools such as knives and axes, foraging, hand-carving wood, container construction from natural materials, rope and twine-making, and many others. These are the kinds of skills well known to our ancient predecessors, many of which are still practiced today as an everyday skill amongst aboriginal and native peoples around the world.

Lt. Mike