Buck 110--riddle of steel?

J

jbaltes

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Jun 13, 2008
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Would the Buck cogniscenti help me determine the steel used in the blade of my Buck 110 (marked 110+)? Weigh in as to the mythical qualities of this knife? My guess is that its 425 or 420HC...

I've owned many blades since I purchased this one in the early 90s (my first). I've used Carbon V (and a variety of unknown carbon steels), Aus-8, 440c, CPM s30v, Ats-34--and throughout it all, this humble knife has cut better and stayed sharper for longer than any of them. People I've hunted with have been amazed that I can butcher several boar and still shave the hair off my arm. Fuzz sticks curl like mad and the blade never gets dull.

I realize that the magic formula is steel+heat treatment+geometry, but I've been shocked by how well this knife has performed with relatively humble steel and non-sexy geometry (not convex, not flat ground, etc.). Did the universe align in some special way the moment the blade was removed from heat treatment--or is this normal in your experience? Common knowledge (an oxymoron, I know) suggests that neither 425 nor 420HC should be able to compete in edge retention with modern super steels--but it has vastly outperformed them. Magic heat treatment? Exceptional geometry? Hasn't Buck changed it's geometry to improve it since then?

I'm at a loss.
 
:cool:...The knife was made in 1991 and has a blade made of 425M steel. It is indeed a great steel IMHO...:thumbup:
 
Ok. So the blade is 425M. From what research I can do electronically, and my extremely limited understanding of metallurgy, 425M is basically similar to440A (.5% carbon), far from an august, high speed steel. Is the Bos heat treatment so good as to render this a superior steel? That seems unlikely. What explains the great performance I've experienced--and the marginal performance reputed to this steel generally? It's that gap I wonder about, and the performance gap relative to reputedly better steels.

I admit that I've sharpened all my knives on the sharpmaker, and that as a result, their blade angles are identical. And I realize that this does not allow the superior strength of the super steels to shine (if, for instance, the blade angles were reduced to the point that that additional strength made a difference). Is it likely that the 425M would suffer greatly by comparison if the blade angle of say, s30v, were 5 degrees finer?

Finally, 425M is not reputed to be great for edge retention, but my experience suggests that this is where it really shines. Any ideas?
 
jbaltes said:
Is the Bos heat treatment so good as to render this a superior steel? That seems unlikely. What explains the great performance I've experienced--and the marginal performance reputed to this steel generally?
Click to expand...

Heat treatment more important than the choice of steel imo. A well treated blade of mediocre steel will outperform a supersteel blade with a questionable heat treatment. Of course a bad steel with a bad heat treatment is especially useless.

Common knowledge (an oxymoron, I know) suggests that neither 425 nor 420HC should be able to compete in edge retention with modern super steels--but it has vastly outperformed them.
Click to expand...
That depends mostly on the heat treatment. :)
 
According to CJ Buck, their primary steel vendor is quite impressed with the performance and test data that Buck is able to extract from steel that is not considered "high performance". There is an explanation for this: Can you say "Paul Bos"?
 
You mentioned 'magical' and 'mythical' in your OP, thus answering your own question. The mystic must be Paul Bos. I can't answer it, either. I have 440A & 440C blades of reknown companies. Those that were delivered sharp, didn't stay that way. Fortunately, the Sharpmaker is just as useful with Buck's 420HC (and my one 425HC) as it is with my Kershaws, Vic SAKs, and BM. I guess we shouldn't question things that require planet alignment.

Stainz
 
Aside form planetary convergence. My 440C out preformes my 425 easily. The 425 must be sharpened once during the cutting test what the 440C can do straight through.
No magic just math. DM
 
Of course I'm being hyperbolic in my use of magical.

And your report is precisely what I would expect (440c is better steel, in the raw, than 425)--but not at all my experience with this knife. Cutting the same wood, the same way, the same number of strokes (hardly a methodological pure control, to be sure), the 425 is holding its edge and cutting better than my high-speed knives. And again, I want to emphasize that this knife has really displayed outstanding edge retention.

I realize that geometry and heat treating are playing a substantial role in this. But doesn't this begin to beg a question: why isn't every manufacturer using mundane steel, well heat treated, to produce a great blade? Is Buck unusual in this? Is Bos that good--and if so, is he a Buck exclusive or does he work for BM, Spyderco, etc.?

I'm as plagued by steel fetishism as anyone, but this may break my fever.
 
jbaltes said:
Of course I'm being hyperbolic in my use of magical.

And your report is precisely what I would expect (440c is better steel, in the raw, than 425)--but not at all my experience with this knife.
Click to expand...

:cool:...If you are comparing the 440C used by the purveyors you've thus far mentioned that may indeed be true. But compare the 425M from Buck to the 440C as sold by Buck in the 60's thru the early 80's and I think you may be surprised. As much as I do like the 425M steel from Buck...their old 440C is in a class by itself...IMHO...:)
 
jbaltes said:
Is Bos that good--and if so, is he a Buck exclusive or does he work for BM, Spyderco, etc.?
Click to expand...

I don't know if other "production" knife makers use Bos's services, other than Simonich, on the Raven. I do know that many custom knife makers send their blades to Paul for heat treating.

Here is a pdf brochure (I'll try an attachment) from BOS Heat Treating. It's a couple of years old but has some info on prices, alloys, heat treating, etc. (6 pages, 672kb).

Well....the pdf exceeded the limit of the allowable upload, so here are the last 3 pages of the pdf, the first three pages were pricing for heat treat services these 3 are probably of more interest.
 

Attachments

I've had a few buck knives in my time, the 110 being one of the best. On a hunting trip in Missoula, I accidently dropped my knife down a ravine, only to be recovered about two months later by my guide. I know this was actually my blade since I hade the blade engraved...it was a stock 110 that I had purchased at a gun show.

Short of a few blemishes, there was little damage to the blade and handle although the knife had been in water, and yes, it was still sharp. There was no play in the blade.

The edge geometry has been changed a bit over the years. The newer 110's are ground somewhat thinner than the older ones, and they cut very well. Buck makes a great product and they have a winner in the 110 as evidenced by scores of happy users and hunters.
 
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