Buck 303 hard to sharpen?

JM2

JM2

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My buddy came to visit and was showing off his new knife. It is a buck 303. Date stamp puts it at 1997. It was dull as a table knife. It also had a fair amount of honest pocket wearX with the seamarks almost worn off the delrin scales. Blades were in okay shape though just dull.

I offered to sharpen it, and I whipped out my dmt stones and got to work. I probably sharpened 30 minutes just on the large blade to get serviceable edge. Not a razors edge. The blades are noticeably harder than other buck 420hc I’ve dealt with. I first thought it was some other type of steel but the date code and my research says 420HC.

What gives?

He declined to leave it for sharpening as he’s still in the honeymoon phase.
 
The 300 series were not made in-house until 2005. In 1997 they were made under contract by Camillus.
The blade steel is likely 440A. (Same as the "Schrade+" blades of that era. The Imperial-Schrade family of brands had/have an excellent heat treat, and usually a decent factory edge geometry.
Is it "possible" the edges have been convexed by improper sharpening over the years by prior owners, and the edge angles changed from the original then common 10 ~ 12.5 degrees per side (20 to 25 degrees inclusive) to 30 ~50 degrees or blunter edge angle favored today?

If me, I'd use a guided rod system that will go to 10° per side to clean up and reset the edge angles, then dry strop to remove any wire edge/burr..
 
Thanks for the info. I knew they at once point had been contracted but no ideas of the dates.

It did look like it had previous sharpening attempts, but minimal. I think it was a low angle. The small blades were in better shape than the large so I spent the most time on the main blade.

I’ve had experience with schrade 440A and it was tempered softer and thus, sharpened easier.
 
JM2 said:
Thanks for the info. I knew they at once point had been contracted but no ideas of the dates.

It did look like it had previous sharpening attempts, but minimal. I think it was a low angle. The small blades were in better shape than the large so I spent the most time on the main blade.

I’ve had experience with schrade 440A and it was tempered softer and thus, sharpened easier.
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That " info " is wrong.
Camillus made slipjoints for Buck from 1971 till 1985 when buck began to produce them in house.
A 1997 made Buck will be 420HC which they began using in 1990.
 
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Rule number one of sharpening: the coarse stone is your friend. I have limited experience with Paul Bos treated 420 (gave the 424 I'd been trying out to my grandad after making a new lock bar for his black cat and I peened the pins a bit tight for 80 year old hands). I have however dealt with their s30v and 5160. I like the American Mutt from baryonyx for resetting bevels.
 
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I don’t have any issues sharpening a 192 and a 110, both from the 2015 era.

Yeah I sharpened the 303 with the dmt coarse for a good while. My buddy didn’t have all day. But I got a working edge on it atleast, though I didn’t remove all the nicks and rolls.
 
JM2 said:
dmt coarse
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Should have said extra coarse. I like my dmt hones, but I've found their coarse grit to be a bit slow for doing any heavy reprofiling. Knives like your buddy's are where a stone like the American Mutt really shine.
 
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Ah. Yeah. I need to get the extra coarse. I’ll have to check the American Mutt out, I’m not familiar with it.
 
Hickory n steel said:
No, Buck began producing the 300 series in house back in 1985.
2005 is when Buck moved from El Cajon California to Post Falls Idaho.
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Huh. I stand corrected. I thought I read in the Buck sub-forum Buck brought the 300's in-house when they moved to the new factory in Idaho.
 
afishhunter said:
Huh. I stand corrected. I thought I read in the Buck sub-forum Buck brought the 300's in-house when they moved to the new factory in Idaho.
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1985, and they even tried having the 300 series assembled in Mexico in '02 or '03 before ultimately deciding to just relocate.
I have no official word on why that never worked out ( never really looked into it ) but I'm glad it didn't because I believe that would have killed them.

Btw I get dates messed up all the time, I have too many hobbies revolving around old stuff with dates to remember.
 
Is it common of the buck pocket knives like that to be tempered harder?
 
Hardness or heat treat shouldn't make a significant difference against any diamond hone, when sharpening either 420HC or 440A. Buck's blades in 420HC are tempered a bit harder - but that sometimes actually makes sharpening easier, due to reduced burring issues.

The thickness of the steel behind the edge, however, will likely be the main reason why some blades in 'simple' steels seem harder to sharpen on any stone. Until Buck started implementing their 'Edge2000' spec (around year 2000), their blade grinds were notoriously thicker behind the edge. And the older 300-series blades from Camillus (440A) were also relatively thick behind the edge as compared to Buck's later-generation knives. Thick-edged blades just need to have more metal removed to thin them out - and that will always require more work & time.

With some high-chromium stainless steels like 440A, another issue can be clogging of the hones. I've noticed that when using diamond hones on simpler stainless steels. That can really slow things down. Keeping the hone adequately lubricated makes a big difference, and will keep the ductile swarf from clinging tenaciously to the hone's grit.
 
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JM2 said:
Is it common of the buck pocket knives like that to be tempered harder?
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No. Problems with sharpening Buck knives almost always result from edge geometry, either from the factory or from poor sharpening after the fact. That's not saying that the factory geometry is bad at all, it can be different than what you're used to. I've never seen a Buck knife that wouldn't take or keep a good edge.
 
It could also be something from the knife's life before meeting your friend. I have a 301 from 1989 that I've never been able to sharpen properly, and a 303 from that same year that's a great slicer. I blame the 301's prior owner, not my mediocre sharpening skills...
 
M
Hickory n steel said:
1985, and they even tried having the 300 series assembled in Mexico in '02 or '03 before ultimately deciding to just relocate.
I have no official word on why that never worked out ( never really looked into it ) but I'm glad it didn't because I believe that would have killed them.

Btw I get dates messed up all the time, I have too many hobbies revolving around old stuff with dates to remember.
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My first 303 is an Assembled in Mexico. I read someplace that program didn't work out .
I still use the knife and if I didn't see the sticker on the box, I wouldn't know.
 
CJ Buck said:
The decision process that eventually landed us in Idaho was long a convoluted.

Initially we were looking for solutions that did not involve relocation.
We looked at fabricating our parts in San Diego (controlling the quality and heat treat) and having all the assembly done in Mexico. We felt we could control the quality because we were right on the border and could be in the plant in minutes (not counting border crossing delays).

We also explored the idea of how important manufacturing was to our brand and would we be better off outsourcing all our production and becoming just a marketing company located in San Diego.

As history bears out, the family decided that US Made was critical to our brand and the legacy left by my grandfather and great grandfather.

That was why we relocated to North Idaho and went through the excruciating task of moving not only a factory but all the families associated with that. It is why we adopted lean and continue to drive continuous improvement within the factory to protect our ability to manufacture in the US going into the future.

The Assembled in Mexico items were an exploratory step along that pathway.

I am very pleased we ended up a lean knife factory in Post Falls, Idaho.
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The above is some info from CJ on the evolution of the move to idaho
 
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