Buck 420hc vs Byrd knives 8cr13mov

[lonestar1979]

Which one is better performing steel?

 

[David Martin]

The 2 steels are close in elements. It may come down to the heat treat behind the blade. Buck does a very good heat treat on their blades with a thorough cryogenic treatment. Check to see if Byrd does a cryogenic soak on their blades. As this could make a big difference in edge retention. DM

 

[lonestar1979]

Couldn't find any info,420hc is probably little better and max lite is probably thiner behind the edge so it cuts better.

 

[droptrd]

Buck has one of the best 420HC out there.

 

[Bighaze51]

I have a bunch of buck knives and have owned a couple Byrds as well. I didn't notice a lot of difference in the edge retention. Maybe a little more with the Bucks. However, if you are looking for a dedicated slicer, I think the Byrd would be better, the FFG blades will continue to slice better than hollow grind of the buck. That said, I still have all of my buck knives but gifted the Byrd to a friend.
They will both take a scary screaming sharp edge and hold it decently

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Buck has one of the best 420HC out there.

Word. I bought a Buck Nobleman. The performance of their 420 HC completely blew me away. I would own a ton more Bucks if only they had more designs that appealed to me. Paul Bos is the man.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

As with any steel, the heat treat will make the biggest difference, and the manufacturer's ability to do that right is what matters. 8Cr has more built-in potential for edge-holding, due to higher carbon content @ ~0.8%, versus ~0.45-0.6% carbon in 420HC. Carbon is what allows the steel to be hardened by heat treat, and the amount of carbon (up to a point, usually around ~2% carbon) determines how hard it can be made in heat treat. If the manufacturer makes the best use of it in 8Cr, that steel should do better. But, many manufacturers don't necessarily take advantage as often as they should (usually too conservative); so, more often than not between the two steels, it could at least be a toss-up. Buck has never (or rarely) been known to produce bad blades in 420HC, as they've done a good job with the heat treat, actually going harder than recommended by the originator of the steel (Latrobe), whom originally spec'd it for mid-50s HRC. If comparing to an 8Cr blade coming from a manufacturer with similar attention to detail (A.G. Russell is known for making some nice ones in 8Cr; I have a few), I wouldn't worry either way.


David

 

[chiral.grolim]

Buck has never (or rarely) been known to produce bad blades in 420HC, as they've done a good job with the heat treat, actually going harder than recommended by the originator of the steel (Latrobe), whom originally spec'd it for mid-50s HRC. If comparing to an 8Cr blade coming from a manufacturer with similar attention to detail (A.G. Russell is known for making some nice ones in 8Cr; I have a few), I wouldn't worry either way.

A.G. Russell is not "known for making" any blades - it is not a manufacturer, not a factory, it is a retailer. 8Cr13MoV is a chinese steel used in chinese knives made in chinese factories, which is what those Byrd and AG Russell knives are. To know the quality of the HT protocol that they implement, one would probably want to ask the factory. Which factory makes them? Same one as makes Kershaw's blades? If so, the old 8Cr13MoV Kershaw Echo tested to 59 Rc which is pretty good, but i have no details on the HT protocol.

The US Buck factory is in Post Falls, ID. They list details about the steel/HT on their website and offer factory tours. The Bos HT-protocol is considered "legendary" and the knives well regarded for that. But a similarly cheap knife made in the USA may show less refinement in other aspects of the build than one made in China where labor/manufacturing is much cheaper. The fact that a cheap US-made Buck or Gerber can compare in quality to a cheap chinese-import amazes me.

To the OP, if you are trying to decide between a specific Buck and a specific Byrd, worry less about the steel and more about other aspects of the design.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

A.G. Russell is not "known for making" any blades - it is not a manufacturer, not a factory, it is a retailer. 8Cr13MoV is a chinese steel used in chinese knives made in chinese factories, which is what those Byrd and AG Russell knives are. To know the quality of the HT protocol that they implement, one would probably want to ask the factory. Which factory makes them? Same one as makes Kershaw's blades? If so, the old 8Cr13MoV Kershaw Echo tested to 59 Rc which is pretty good, but i have no details on the HT protocol.

The US Buck factory is in Post Falls, ID. They list details about the steel/HT on their website and offer factory tours. The Bos HT-protocol is considered "legendary" and the knives well regarded for that. But a similarly cheap knife made in the USA may show less refinement in other aspects of the build than one made in China where labor/manufacturing is much cheaper. The fact that a cheap US-made Buck or Gerber can compare in quality to a cheap chinese-import amazes me.

To the OP, if you are trying to decide between a specific Buck and a specific Byrd, worry less about the steel and more about other aspects of the design.

I'm an A.G. Russell customer since the early '90s, and have purchased dozens of knives from him. I KNOW he doesn't make the knives himself, under his brand. HE DOES DESIGN THEM and specs all of the manufacturing details about them, to be manufactured to his own high standards. This is what I was conveying in my comments earlier. He's had manufacturers all over the world (U.S., Japan, Germany, China, etc.) build knives to HIS OWN DESIGNS, or to designs of those working with or for him. The point I was making, is that no matter where he's sourced his knives, they've all been of very good quality, and his blades have always taken the most advantage of the steels used (higher hardness, better edge grinds, etc). That's a reflection of the BRAND and it's reputation for it's quality, and the point I was emphasizing in looking for makers of known good reputation, focusing less on over-generalized notions about the quality of a given steel type. 420HC, and specifically Buck's use of it, is a classic example, in that the steel's quality in finished blades can run the gamut, depending on which maker produced and heat-treated the blades.

(If you ever get a chance to look at A.G. Russell's guarantee on his products, you'd understand why his standards are as high as they are, with little reason to worry about which factory they came out of, or what processes they used.)


David

 

[chiral.grolim]

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Do I get theme music?

I didn't intend any offense, but it's an important point to make. You called AG Russell a "manufacturer", just as I've read folk call ESEE and Fallkniven "manufacturers" but none of these make knives. It isn't obvious to some folk, especially when others mislead them.
If a knife is well-designed, it is a tribute to the designer. If well-made that is a tribute to the manufacturer. The two may not be the same, as is indeed the case for many knives designed in the US but made overseas often without permission.
Like Spyderco and Kershaw who guarantee the products bearing their brand, A.G. Russell hopefully contracted a decent manufacturer in China to produce a knife he could sell at the price he set without incurring lots of returns from dis-satisfied customers. Contracting a company to follow a protocol does not guarantee that the product will meet acceptable standards, whereupon the client would likely switch manufacturers. Presumably Spyderco and Kershaw and A.G. Russell have found Chinese manufacturers that they are happy with, and I provided some info at least on the outcome of the HT being applied by Kershaw's contractor which may or may not be the same as A.G. Russell and Spyderco use. I don't know. Do you? What details do you have about the factory's reputation for heat-treatment other than that A.G. Russell is using them? *shrug* If the steel has greater potential than Buck's 420HC but performance doesn't show it, that suggests deficiency in the manufacture.

Buck is a US company that runs a factory all its own, has a patented HT protocol and can be contracted to HT blades for others. Buck is a manufacturer and a domestic one at that. This distinction may not be important to you but it is to manufacturers. Pride comes with making a good product. IF their domestically-produced 420HC blades perform as well or better at the same price-point as chinese-imports made from theoretically superior steel, that says something. It doesn't tell the OP which steel is better, it tells him which manufacturer is better. That's all. Sorry if that too is obvious.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Chiral,

I've edited my earlier response to do away with my snarky remark, though it came entirely in response to the condescending tone in your first statement of your earlier post. Had you asked a simple question, such as 'How does he ensure the quality of his line?', this would have taken a different course.

Members here who are familiar with A.G. Russell's knives (he's a member here too, BTW) are very much aware that he's built a stellar reputation on selecting reliable manufacturers for his own A.G. Russell-branded knives (check the Traditional forum for discussion of his knives). He's been at it a long time, and he's likely better at it than most anyone. When issues have come up with QC or whatever, he wastes no time in fixing what needs to be fixed, taking some painful losses at times in doing so. I will say, for someone who doesn't actually own a factory, he's effectively closer as a 'manufacturer' than most anybody else not actually doing their own, because he so closely monitors what his manufacturing partners are doing for him, and makes sure he's getting quality from them. That's the entire point in what I was saying earlier; if one isn't sure what they might be getting in a particular blade steel, sticking with producers of known quality is the best way to minimize chances of disappointment. By his own guarantee, he allows literally ANY product sold by him (his own line or not) to be returned to him, at any time, for any reason. On those grounds, he has no option but to make sure he keeps quality up to par.


David

 

[chiral.grolim]

Chiral,

I've edited my earlier response to do away with my snarky remark, though it came entirely in response to the condescending tone in your first statement of your earlier post...

:thumbup: Thank you, i do apologize if I came off as condescending, i just wanted to avoid misleading folk and think it an important distinction to make, sellers (even if also designers) vs actual manufacturers. But I further support your suggestion, that the OP worry less about which steel is "better" and more about buying from a reputable source (either a good manufacturer or one who is careful about whom he contracts) and selecting a design optimized for the intended purpose or at least more aesthetically pleasing :thumbup:

 

[cchu518]

I have both, both pretty good user steels. You wouldn't notice the underperformimg unless you were using it side by side with s30 or another steel that has the exact same blade geometry as the 420 and 8CR13