Buffing Compounds-Bein' Picky

[StevieWunders]

Howdy! Having ventured into the (seemingly) occult world of stropping, I would like to experiment with-specifically-the more solid stick/waxy stick forms of pastes. I have no problem finding quite an array of them from a variety of dealers. Very few of them can/will reveal their grit equivalents. I don't have any problem trying them all to see what they do for me, but if information is out there, I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel. I don't buy stones, man-made or natural, or diamonds without getting a certification of grit size in some understandable measure. It is frustrating to be expected to purchase stropping paste without the same information. I have found and bought exactly one commercially available example: a stick of green crayon which assures me its average particle size is .5 micron. I'm happy with that. I would like to have more in larger grit sizes. I know they're there. I see them advertised. I can even read up on their ingredients. Why is grit size a state secret? Somebody in the mixing plant HAS to know.
Sorry. I've begun to rant. In my bleary, late-night searches of the internet, have I overlooked some retailer with the benevolent attitude that his customers should know what they're getting? I say "retailer" because I did make one contact with a Chinese outfit that was willing to divulge grit info...by the ton.:jerkit: If I've missed the obvious in my quest, go ahead, bruise my ego and tell me who and where. (Yes, I am aware of goops and semi-liquids with very specific and reliable ratings, but I plan on trying a wide variety of strop materials, including papers, fabrics, leathers, woods and more-if I don't die first. Gettin' kinda long in the tooth...Anyway, the crayons seem comfortable with just about any surface).
Okay, tired of typing. I hope someone takes the trouble to read this and happens to have the answer.
Thank you.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sad truth is, many or perhaps most of the garden-variety polishing/buffing compounds on the retail market won't ever be fully known for abrasive content or grit size. A few manufacturers will thoughtfully include such info on labelling (to a limited extent), but I think most don't. The majority of users of such compounds won't ever care to ask, or even understand why it may be important. Most commercially-available compounds will be labelled and targeted for specific uses ('stainless steel', 'hard metals', 'soft metals', 'heavy grinding/stock removal', 'final polishing', etc.), and non-knife nuts likely won't ever have reason to be concerned for more details.

Having said all that, Ryobi does label their stick/crayon compound for approximate particle size ('2-5 micron', '1-3 micron', for example) and sometimes abrasive type (emery, corundum, etc.). I have a couple of their compound sticks, found at Home Depot. Specifically:

Ryobi H 'White Rouge Buffing Compound' (2-5 microns); "For shining to a high gloss finish hard metals, soft metals, nickel, chrome & plastics."

Ryobi C 'Emery Buffing Compound' C (1-3 microns); "For use when coarse buffing; removing scratches, rust, burrs and pitts from hard metals."

Lacking any other info, I at least look for 'stainless steel', 'hard metals' (w/qualifiers like 'fine finishing' or 'polishing') or other labelling which may hint at the compound's usefulness for knife blades. If I see only 'soft metals' or 'brass, pewter, nickel, copper' etc., I generally won't bother trying it.


David

 

[L2bravo]

David, I bought a Ryobi pack yesterday, that had three sticks in it. Red, yellow, Red. I was Tripoli, the yellow is "For stainless/hard metals, and jewlers rouge. Have you seen these? Any info? Thanks, Josh

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, I bought a Ryobi pack yesterday, that had three sticks in it. Red, yellow, Red. I was Tripoli, the yellow is "For stainless/hard metals, and jewlers rouge. Have you seen these? Any info? Thanks, Josh

Haven't seen or tried those yet. Are there really two reds in that package?

Edit: Is this the package you bought? I guess the 1st one (Tripoli) might be seen as red/brown; it's often described as 'brown tripoli'. The other 'red' one (rouge) is likely iron oxide, and may not be too useful for knife blades. I'm guessing the yellow might be a blend, maybe aluminum oxide and something else; might be OK for knives. Based on the quoted description from Home Depot (below), the Tripoli might be too soft for steel as well.

(...)
Tripoli compound helps clean soft metals and plastics
Stainless-steel compound helps clean and shine hard and plated metals
Jeweler's rouge helps to clean and shine solid and plated silver and gold
(...)

David

 

[L2bravo]

Yes Sir. The Tripoli, and Jewelers. The stainless is yellow.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Yes Sir. The Tripoli, and Jewelers. The stainless is yellow.

I just edited my last post with some more info.^


David

 

[r8shell]

Jeweler's rouge is good for shining up bolsters :thumbup:

(a little messy, though.)

 

[L2bravo]

David, that is exactly what I bought. So I guess the only one worth a nickel is the yellow. It seems to work nicely.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, that is exactly what I bought. So I guess the only one worth a nickel is the yellow. It seems to work nicely.

May not hurt to try the others as well, maybe with some basic steels like 1095 or Case CV. They might have a tougher time with higher alloy stainless though. I don't have a lot of confidence in the red rouge (never been able to get any good out of it, on knife blades), but having not tried the Tripoli, I don't know how it compares.

Sometimes, you can add some punch to softer compounds just by using them on a firmer/hard substrate as well. A combination of soft compound on soft leather may be ineffective, but if used on something firmer (wood, paper over a stone/glass), sometimes the 'wimpy' compounds can surprise, at least for fine finishing/polishing. May find a way to get your money's worth out of them.


David

 

[Skimo]

They ticked me off, they used to carry some pretty fine Cr02 compound, shoulda been smart and grabbed a few sticks, now it's gone and I have to start my search over again.

Probably go with stick instead of diamond spray since I strop on my jeans... A material that does exceedingly well for stropping, hard to overload.

 

[Ben Dover]

It's easy to find if you avoid the "crayons" and use paste/slurry/spray compounds. Many suppliers, sell them only by grit size.

Like you, I detest buying an abrasive that the manufacturer/seller will not give out technical specifications for.

Take a look at:

Chef Knives To Go
Jende industries
Sharpening Supplies.com
U.S.-products.com
Graves lapidary supply
HandAmerican

I find the pastes and sprays far easier to use than the "crayons."

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've been getting good results lately, with some green CrO powder purchased at a local rockhound/lapidary hobby shop. Also bought some 600-grit SiC there (powder). Mixed with some mineral oil and used on balsa, I've been liking how both are working. The SiC seems to be more variable in results, depending upon which blades I put to it; easy to be to too aggressive with it on some softer & simpler steels. But the green compound is still continuing to impress me, on anything from 1095/CV, 420HC, up to D2. The only downside to using it this way, is you have to be very careful in handling the dry powder. Potentially a nasty mess if it gets spilled or kicked up into the air.


David

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

... The only downside to using it this way, is you have to be very careful in handling the dry powder. Potentially a nasty mess if it gets spilled or kicked up into the air.
David

Mix CrO powder with liquid disk soap - no dust; easy to clean; low friction; less industrial smell

 

[Ben Dover]

I've been getting good results lately, with some green CrO powder purchased at a local rockhound/lapidary hobby shop. Also bought some 600-grit SiC there (powder). Mixed with some mineral oil and used on balsa, I've been liking how both are working. The SiC seems to be more variable in results, depending upon which blades I put to it; easy to be to too aggressive with it on some softer & simpler steels. But the green compound is still continuing to impress me, on anything from 1095/CV, 420HC, up to D2. The only downside to using it this way, is you have to be very careful in handling the dry powder. Potentially a nasty mess if it gets spilled or kicked up into the air.


David

CrOx powder and mineral oil works well.

BTW, HandAmerican usually has SiC in various grits available as pastes, ready to apply to the strop. I've used their 6.0 and 2.5 micron SiC pastes with very good results.

I use rubber gloves and a painter's face mask when handling abrasive powders. Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but I didn't get to be an old codger by being insufficiently cautious!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My 'powder-handling routine' involves using a plastic drinking straw to 'scoop' a little powder from it's jar (replace lid IMMEDIATELY) and drop that bit of powder into a mixing dish/cup (disposable 1-cup plastic margarine tubs are perfect), with a little bit of mineral oil in the bottom. I use a small arts/crafts paintbrush to stir the mix, and then 'paint' it onto my balsa block with the brush (this works GREAT for uniform distribution, BTW). After painting the block, I immediately clean the brush in warm/hot water + dish soap, so the messy brush won't come into contact with anything it shouldn't. I also wash/rinse the straw for the same reason. All of the above is best-done near a pre-filled sink of warm/hot water + dish detergent. The green compound is so fine, the powder will embed into almost anything it touches, if attempting to rub it off dry. The green stains aren't always so easy to remove from wood and other soft or porous surfaces.

Also helps to avoid doing any of this near a fan of any kind (ceiling fan, A/C vent, etc.). Very still air is a very good thing.


David

CrOx powder and mineral oil works well.

BTW, HandAmerican usually has SiC in various grits available as pastes, ready to apply to the strop. I've used their 6.0 and 2.5 micron SiC pastes with very good results.

I use rubber gloves and a painter's face mask when handling abrasive powders. Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but I didn't get to be an old codger by being insufficiently cautious!

 

[HeavyHanded]

Howdy! Having ventured into the (seemingly) occult world of stropping, I would like to experiment with-specifically-the more solid stick/waxy stick forms of pastes. I have no problem finding quite an array of them from a variety of dealers. Very few of them can/will reveal their grit equivalents. I don't have any problem trying them all to see what they do for me, but if information is out there, I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel. I don't buy stones, man-made or natural, or diamonds without getting a certification of grit size in some understandable measure. It is frustrating to be expected to purchase stropping paste without the same information. I have found and bought exactly one commercially available example: a stick of green crayon which assures me its average particle size is .5 micron. I'm happy with that. I would like to have more in larger grit sizes. I know they're there. I see them advertised. I can even read up on their ingredients. Why is grit size a state secret? Somebody in the mixing plant HAS to know.
Sorry. I've begun to rant. In my bleary, late-night searches of the internet, have I overlooked some retailer with the benevolent attitude that his customers should know what they're getting? I say "retailer" because I did make one contact with a Chinese outfit that was willing to divulge grit info...by the ton.:jerkit: If I've missed the obvious in my quest, go ahead, bruise my ego and tell me who and where. (Yes, I am aware of goops and semi-liquids with very specific and reliable ratings, but I plan on trying a wide variety of strop materials, including papers, fabrics, leathers, woods and more-if I don't die first. Gettin' kinda long in the tooth...Anyway, the crayons seem comfortable with just about any surface).
Okay, tired of typing. I hope someone takes the trouble to read this and happens to have the answer.
Thank you.

Steve, first off I'm happy to hear the Washboard is working well for you!

Very few if any compound manufacturers make their own abrasive, and few sales reps work on the floor. They can tell you all about the intended purpose of a given mix. You can search up the MSDS for most compounds and that will tell you what the abrasive and binder are. Most are aluminum oxide in a blend of stearic acid (stearin).

The Ryobi stuff isn't bad - the yellow has a real thick binder that makes it clump up when applied, so a drop of mineral oil is helpful to break it down for hand stropping. Particle size is approx 5-10 micron. The Ryobi white and Sears white, and Dico stainless are finer, about 1 micron or so. The Ryobi black and Sears black are much larger, maybe 30 micron or so. These are guestimates based on breaking down a piece of the compound with oil and looking at it under a microscope, so definitely a margin of error. Particle distribution size is surprisingly tight.

In my experience, one can get graded abrasives that are made to fairly tight tolerances from a lot of outlets - lapidary supply houses are a good source. However, in my experience the binder plays a very important role in how a given abrasive interacts with the leather/paper/sheet gasket material/canvas etc for best results. Most compound makers probably source their abrasive from the same manufacturer, the sometimes wide difference between one and the next likely comes down to this factor.

Another factor is the use of multiple grit sizes in the same compound - Flexcut uses this strategy to an excellent result. I went this way myself with the homebrew compound included with the Washboard. I wanted it to have max versatility, and wasn't really satisfied with how the existing compounds worked on compressed paper anyway. Not that they didn't work well enough - I wanted better than well-enough, and good utility for a wide range of user skills and expectations. While narrowing down the binder equation, did a number of head-to head tests with single grit content vs multiple, and for general use the multigrit compound reliably outperformed the single.

When you factor in the peripheral details (density and composition of the substrate, mobility of the particle, pressure) the exact size of the abrasive becomes secondary to the way it works in a given application.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

HH, just wondering which Ryobi 'black' you're referring to? The black 'emery' I'm using from them (referenced in my earlier post) is labelled (on the tube) as 1-3 microns in size, as opposed to the 30 microns you've mentioned. Seems to polish very easily, so I'd assume the particle size isn't too large.

This is what I've got:

David

 

[HeavyHanded]

David, I don't know if its the same - here's the pack mine came with

If its 1-3 micron, it clumps to make considerably larger, durable pieces. The average size was much larger than the particles in their yellow, and the stuff in their white was half that again. Their black emery, broken down, was comparable to Sears and Dico, neither make any claims re particle size. The chunks were much larger than the depth of field of the microscope, approx 2-3 micron at that magnification, and larger than the toner particles from the print engines, 5-6 micron. If I can find my chunk at home, I'll redo this and see if I can get a more accurate number.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks HH.

Wouldn't be surprised if it's clumping, if mine is the same as what you looked at. That's my biggest gripe with it, as it's pretty stubborn stuff to use 'dry' as a crayon, except if applied at very light pressure. Leaves some big chunks if scrubbed too hard on the stropping surface.


David

 

[Ben Dover]

David, that's what makes paste so much more convenient.:thumbup: