Bugei's new entry level?

Robert.B

Robert.B

Joined
Apr 17, 2003
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http://www.bugei.com/entry-level-hawk-feather-1656-prd1.htm

Was eye balling this one, I've been wanting another katana for some time, sold my iaido sword some time ago to help fund my immigration to the US and these look nice but does anyone have experience with the steels? know which maker is putting these out? I'm wanting to see better pics of this one but it seems no one has one yet (guess they're really new).

Says its differentially hardened but doesn't mention a hamon.
 
I don't think that 1065 should concern you.

1055 makes a great, strong sword, if heat treated properly.
 
jrmy0641 said:
not entirely true.
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Enlighten us then instead of a vague blanket statement...I use 1095 making differentially treated knives and tools, the person treating the steel and method of treating it dictates the hardness properties (there are guys using various techniques to make 1030 mild steel hardenable for axes). The whole purpose of this thread was to find out if they are getting results with 1065, I have never seen these swords and they are not made by cas/hanwei like other models.
 
Well, there may be more to it. Some steels handle various hardness levels better than others. Grain structure, toughness, tensile strength, etc, may all be factors.

From what I recall, some feel that 1095 isn't as good of a steel as others for a sword because it tends to be more brittle than the other 10 series steels. Makes great knives, because it's got solid edge retention, but higher brittleness isn't a good thing in a sword.
 
Robert.B said:
Enlighten us then instead of a vague blanket statement...I use 1095 making differentially treated knives and tools, the person treating the steel and method of treating it dictates the hardness properties (there are guys using various techniques to make 1030 mild steel hardenable for axes). The whole purpose of this thread was to find out if they are getting results with 1065, I have never seen these swords and they are not made by cas/hanwei like other models.
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You made a blanket statement, not me.
 
Reasonable price with Bugei's quality control. Not a bad combo. U could contact Bugei and ask. Very friendly and usually get back to u quick. I'd get the sword if I didn't have more than I know what to do with.
 
The hardness of any given material is dictated by the person treating the steel
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This is not true. The heat treatment has a very substantial effect on the hardness and toughness of steel, but the alloy content, in this case carbon, plays a part as well. You cannot get whatever hardness you want out of whatever steel you choose.

As for specific steels, many high end swords are made from 5160 or 52100, which are more like 1055 or 1065 in carbon content.
 
baeleg said:
This is not true. The heat treatment has a very substantial effect on the hardness and toughness of steel, but the alloy content, in this case carbon, plays a part as well. You cannot get whatever hardness you want out of whatever steel you choose.

As for specific steels, many high end swords are made from 5160 or 52100, which are more like 1055 or 1065 in carbon content.
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Actually, it is absolutely true.

I can take a piece of 1095 and have it at whatever hardness I desire. What I can't do is have the steel be at whatever toughness I want. That's where alloying comes into play.

Toughness/brittleness is affected but not completely controlled by hardness.

All of the 10xx series steels are simple steels and at sword hardnesses would be functionally nearly identical.



One last note, 52100 has even more carbon then 1095, over 1% versus the .55% or .65% of the other alloys you mentioned.
 
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Ok, I was dead wrong on 52100. Must have been thinking of some other steel.

I don't think you can get 1095 to whatever hardness you want. It has a range. Maybe whatever you want is within that range, but I doubt you can get it 70 HRC, for instance.
 
baeleg said:
Ok, I was dead wrong on 52100. Must have been thinking of some other steel.

I don't think you can get 1095 to whatever hardness you want. It has a range. Maybe whatever you want is within that range, but I doubt you can get it 70 HRC, for instance.
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The as quenched hardness of 1095 is about 66-67Rc so that is the max. With proper tempering 1095 can go from that down to 20Rc or so when fully annealed. Anywhere in between is fair game.

An interesting fact is that the as quenched hardness of even a lower carbon alloy like 5160 is still ~63Rc. Nearly all steels have to be tempered back to usable hardness though.


I'm not calling you out in particular but trying to address what seems to be a common misconception in this thread.

Hardness within a steels usable range is controlled by the heat treater, not the alloy and saying that 1095 is too hard a steel is missing that fact.



Back to the original topic; just my .02's but 1065 should make a fine sword. It is easily capable of hardening to cutlery hardnesses, when tempered back to it's final hardness should have plenty of toughness and even more importantly, compared to 1095 it has a much easier heat treat that is harder to mess up.
 
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Matt Markell said:
Hardness within a steels usable range is controlled by the heat treater, not the alloy and saying that 1095 is too hard a steel is missing that fact.
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It's been awhile since my materials courses, so I am sure I'm getting stuff wrong. I guess I just took too much offense to the "whatever I want" statement. :o

Edit: I also agree that people conflate hardness and brittleness, when it's not that simple. There are some alloys out there that are hard and tough. The trade off is usually expense and ease of manufacture.

On topic: I think 1055, 1065, 5160, and 1095 are all fine sword steels.
 
I've seen good blades made from pretty much every type of 10-- series steel. Depends on the heat treater and the application.
 
Just to get back on track here......As much as I am not a fan of bugei, the blade above actually looks quite nice. With that said, the thing you need to keep in mind is that production Bugei blades at the end of the day are still from the paul chen factory. Yes, bugei is "known" for their quality control, but nothing is guaranteed, they have had slips and misses just like anyone else. So the question is, are you willing to pay an extra $100+ for someone to look over your blade before shipping, or do you want to find a comparable paul chen blade from a reputable online dealer with a good return policy and spend $100+ less? When I first got into JSA I started with paul chen blades. The only issue I have ever had was some blade rattle in the saya, and you are probably going to get that from bugei regardless because the saya are mass produced just like the rest of the koshirae.

So, does Bugei have some nice designs....yes. Do they have good customer service....yes. Can you find a comparable sword from the same factory for a cheaper price...YES
 
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