thank you all, I've worked in manufacturing for 20 years, running machine shops, tool shops and production departments etc. So I've been working around design, metalworking etc for awhile. I appreciate quality and design and am willing to pay for it. I also use my stuff and make sure I get my worth out of whatever I purchase. I only cry about quality once and I can't stand cheap quality design and build. I did start with a small Buck Vantage in my quest to find what was good for me.