Bulat Steel. Thoughts?

[sogtrident7]

Thinking of getting a Russian Bulat Steel knife. There are some pretty impressive test videos on YouTube from a few makers.

Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? Pure iron and carbon. A new version of the legendary lost art of Wootz steel. Anyway I watched a guy pound it through angle iron with a smith hammer, hack and stab frozen chickens, baton into said angle iron a dozen times and stab into a steel barrel a few times with absolutely zero primary edge deformation on the closeup.

I’d also like to find an American retailer.

 

[DeadboxHero]

You got me excited, I looked it up and found the video. I was impressed.....

Then he showed the edge.....


THERE IS NO EDGE!

It's a 0.030" plateau. And he is hammering into a corner of angle iron not steel.

Not impressed.

Geometry, geometry, geometry.

But I'm sure it's still a cool knife. Especially with an edge and used to cut stuff.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Looks sweet

Hrmm look at the plunge, thick, and gets thinner but only to about 0.030" from what I see.

We see a bevel but also looks like a plateau, too low res at this angle.

But then we see on the far right how thick we are on the far right, again probably too low res to confirm.


From my experience, I'd say this is a play on geometry, not steel.

Again I'm sure it's a sweet knife but not impressed by the testing.

 

[evilgreg]

A new version of the legendary lost art of Wootz steel.

Yes, the legendary wootz, the magical puck of bulat and let us not forget the unbelievable power of tamahagane while we're at it. Throw in the old "Frank Richtig hammered his kitchen knives through bars of steel" and I think we could get all the regular knife hoodoo-voodoo topics into one thread.

People bought millions of ginsu knives because they saw it cut through a nail, I'm old enough to remember the commercials. I'm not buying into any magic just because someone hammers their probably thick-edged knife into some softer metal and cuts through it without destroying the edge.

Now if someone manages to combine the magical powers of wootz and tamahagane with Richtig's secret heat treatment, then the product would surely surpass the capabilities of modern metallurgy so completely that metallurgists would collectively commit ritual suicide (presumably using tamahagane folded steel wakizashis). Right after that happens I'll reconsider my position on the amazing powers of the bladesmiths of yore.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Food for thought

This is a 30 DPS 60 included angle on a compound bevel with the back bevel at 15 DPS 30 inclusive.

Batoned a .260" cold drawn low carbon steel nail.

Impressive? Legendary Steel? Hell no.
Geometry tricks

It's .187" ( 3/16") at the spine which is nice but the saber grind terminates to a 0.55" behind the 15dps, THATS MORE THEN DOUBLE the thickness found on most knives behind a 20dps.
Which reduces the actual cutting efficiency.

It's still 0.032" behind the compound bevel. Thick AF.

The perfect geometry for a cold chisel. Ready to chop nails but horrible for actually being a knife. We can fix that and drop the angles to 0.020" behind a 15dps with lots of grinding but IT WILL FAIL on the nail test.


That's how powerful proper geometry is.
So don't be fooled.
Double check to make sure it's thin enough that STEEL is actually being tested not geometry hiding it.

 

[knarfeng]

The magic of wootz (Damascus) steel was that it was being compared to Medieval European steel which had many inclusions due to the forging methods of the time. Compare wootz steel to modern alloys and the performance of the wootz steel is nothing special.

Such a comparison was actually performed by Dr. John Verhoeven professor of Metallurgy emeritus at Northern Iowa University.

 

[sogtrident7]

All makes perfect sense fellas. I’ll just go ahead and keep the mean street ergo in sr101, the BR drop point hunter in 4v and the soon to be back in action Carter in hitatchi white in the current rotation for now.

I have to say 4v is really good for my uses, gets sharp and stays sharp. Normally a 20-22 deg primary and I keep the secondary fairly thin (I sharpen on water stones then strop).

I’m stoked about the Carter but it just went back due to what suspect is either too hot during heat treat, or not tempered. Murray actually should get it back in his magical hands today and give me a call. I will post his findings on the thread I started Sunday.

 

[Charlie Mike]

I'm currently running a (infi) TGLB with approx .030" behind secodary, reprofiled to 20 DPS. I think I've struck a good balance.

 

[Natlek]

Food for thought

This is a 30 DPS 60 included angle on a compound bevel with the back bevel at 15 DPS 30 inclusive.

Batoned a .260" cold drawn low carbon steel nail.

Impressive? Legendary Steel? Hell no.
Geometry tricks

It's .187" ( 3/16") at the spine which is nice but the saber grind terminates to a 0.55" behind the 15dps, THATS MORE THEN DOUBLE the thickness found on most knives behind a 20dps.
Which reduces the actual cutting efficiency.

It's still 0.032" behind the compound bevel. Thick AF.

The perfect geometry for a cold chisel. Ready to chop nails but horrible for actually being a knife. We can fix that and drop the angles to 0.020" behind a 15dps with lots of grinding but IT WILL FAIL on the nail test.


That's how powerful proper geometry is.
So don't be fooled.
Double check to make sure it's thin enough that STEEL is actually being tested not geometry hiding it.

It's not that simple ............ 0.4mm behind edge is FOUR time stronger edge then 0.2mm thick behind edge in same steel . But STEEL is ALWAYS actually being tested . For example take same HSS steel , no need for bevel to grind just put some edge /like chisel/ and try to cut that nail .It will break in half on first hit with hammer on spine no matter of DPS ............proper geometry matters for any steel out there , of course .That is the trick , to find what work best for given steel and application of use ...................

 

[DeadboxHero]

It's not that simple ............ 0.4mm behind edge is FOUR time stronger edge then 0.2mm thick behind edge in same steel . But STEEL is ALWAYS actually being tested . For example take same HSS steel , no need for bevel to grind just put some edge /like chisel/ and try to cut that nail .It will break in half on first hit with hammer on spine no matter of DPS ............proper geometry matters for any steel out there , of course .That is the trick , to find what work best for given steel and application of use ...................

I don't follow what your saying, reiterate.

 

[Jhansenak47]

The magic of wootz (Damascus) steel was that it was being compared to Medieval European steel which had many inclusions due to the forging methods of the time. Compare wootz steel to modern alloys and the performance of the wootz steel is nothing special.

The magic of bulat/wootz is the dendrites. The Sypderco Serrata is a good analogy. The performance of my wootz knife is quite good. I wouldn't call it "nothing special", but I don't think it balances hardness, toughness, and performance as good as newer steels. Most modern wootz knives are ran fairly hard. (63+RC) I actually broke the tip on mine and attribute that to higher hardness making the steel more brittle. Personally although I like wootz, I prefer modern powder steels like 3V, 4V/Vanadis 4E, and M390.

 

[Natlek]

I don't follow what your saying, reiterate.

OK ............ About geometry , blade with 0.4mm behind edge have FOUR time stronger edge then blade with 0.2mm thick behind edge in same steel , same HRC .
The characteristics of the steel are determined by its composition , you can not make spring steel with 1.5 % carbon and 64Hrc ....What I try to say is this .Take all known steel , HT them and make chisel from them /exactly the same , geometry ..... thickness / and test them on nail . Many will not pass the test because their purpose is not for that job ...........
Suppose I copy the geometry from this knife on 67 HRC HSS steel ....do you think he'll pass the test with nail ?

 

[DeadboxHero]

OK ............ About geometry , blade with 0.4mm behind edge have FOUR time stronger edge then blade with 0.2mm thick behind edge in same steel , same HRC .
The characteristics of the steel are determined by its composition , you can not make spring steel with 1.5 % carbon and 64Hrc ....What I try to say is this .Take all known steel , HT them and make chisel from them /exactly the same , geometry ..... thickness / and test them on nail . Many of them will not pass the test because their purpose is not for that job ...........
Suppose I copy the geometry from this knife on 67 HRC HSS steel ....do you think he'll pass the test with nail ?

Do it.

Let's see.

 

[cutler81]

Thinking of getting a Russian Bulat Steel knife. There are some pretty impressive test videos on YouTube from a few makers.

Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? Pure iron and carbon. A new version of the legendary lost art of Wootz steel. Anyway I watched a guy pound it through angle iron with a smith hammer, hack and stab frozen chickens, baton into said angle iron a dozen times and stab into a steel barrel a few times with absolutely zero primary edge deformation on the closeup.

I’d also like to find an American retailer.

could you please share the link to this youtube movie?

 

[cutler81]

Looks sweet

Hrmm look at the plunge, thick, and gets thinner but only to about 0.030" from what I see.

We see a bevel but also looks like a plateau, too low res at this angle.

But then we see on the far right how thick we are on the far right, again probably too low res to confirm.


From my experience, I'd say this is a play on geometry, not steel.

Again I'm sure it's a sweet knife but not impressed by the testing.

could you please share the link to the movie?

 

[tiguy7]

View attachment 882438

The magic of wootz (Damascus) steel was that it was being compared to Medieval European steel which had many inclusions due to the forging methods of the time. Compare wootz steel to modern alloys and the performance of the wootz steel is nothing special.

Such a comparison was actually performed by Dr. John Verhoeven professor of Metallurgy emeritus at Northern Iowa University.

Al Pendray (MS) worked with Dr. Verhoeven to undercover the secrets of Wootz steel. Here is an Al Pendray Wootz Bowie. The sheath is by Chuck Weeber (JS).

 

[cutler81]

Thinking of getting a Russian Bulat Steel knife. There are some pretty impressive test videos on YouTube from a few makers.

Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? Pure iron and carbon. A new version of the legendary lost art of Wootz steel. Anyway I watched a guy pound it through angle iron with a smith hammer, hack and stab frozen chickens, baton into said angle iron a dozen times and stab into a steel barrel a few times with absolutely zero primary edge deformation on the closeup.

I’d also like to find an American retailer.

Check the facebook group named "Wootz Legend" - many interesting information about wootz (bulat) knives.
They are going to make some test using wootz blades, including a few russian wootz knives as well.

It is closed group, so you need to become a member.

 

[Mo2]

The magic of bulat/wootz is the dendrites. The Sypderco Serrata is a good analogy. The performance of my wootz knife is quite good. I wouldn't call it "nothing special", but I don't think it balances hardness, toughness, and performance as good as newer steels. Most modern wootz knives are ran fairly hard. (63+RC) I actually broke the tip on mine and attribute that to higher hardness making the steel more brittle. Personally although I like wootz, I prefer modern powder steels like 3V, 4V/Vanadis 4E, and M390.

Your tip breaking off could just be poor tip geometry for that type of task. Then again who knows for sure.

 

[Pegasus Leaders]

Hello everyone, I am from Russia from the city of gunsmiths, where back in 1833 they revealed the secret of bulat steel. In 2019, the first international store of Zlatoust craftsmen and gunsmiths opened. Among others, there are famous bulat steel knives.

The site has an interesting article about bulat steel, the history of gunsmiths since 1815 and much more.

If you are passionate about this topic, then you will be interested to know more and even be surprised

Gunsmiths Zlatoust - Pegasus Leaders