Burning Edges?

Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
30
Hi everybody,

So the topic of burning knife edges came to my ears. Apparently, when using a belt system (I'm using the work sharp), you can burn your edge which results in undoing the heat treatment. And that's supposedly also a problem with a lot of production knives.

Anyways, how do I prevent that from happening and how can I tell if it happened? I understand the performance is affected, but that's really hard to judge for me...
 
I used the worksharp ken onion edition for years. I sharpened and reprofiled edges of fixed blades for hours on end. I only run it at lowest speed and make lots of breaks to look at the edge. I never noticed anything bad in terms of performance. Friends for whom I sharpened knives even say they never lasted so long retention wise, which I think is due to the slight convex a belt sander puts on.

In production knives with factory edges I noticed it a lot from cold steel and spyderco. The worsed was a recon 1 in s35vn, it chipped heavily along the whole edge from opening on can of tuna camping when no can opener was with me. Since than I sharpen all new knives upon arrival, it never happened again but trauma is sitting deep.
 
My Spyderco PM2 came with a burned edge (2014) and microchipped badly. Sent it into Spyderco, they sharpened it through the burned part of the edge and its been good ever since.
 
Hi everybody,

So the topic of burning knife edges came to my ears. Apparently, when using a belt system (I'm using the work sharp), you can burn your edge which results in undoing the heat treatment. And that's supposedly also a problem with a lot of production knives.

Anyways, how do I prevent that from happening and how can I tell if it happened? I understand the performance is affected, but that's really hard to judge for me...

The only way around is wet grinding.

Note that some steels appear to be particularly sensitive to overheating by dry grinding, for example Magnacut.
 
I used the worksharp ken onion edition for years. I sharpened and reprofiled edges of fixed blades for hours on end. I only run it at lowest speed and make lots of breaks to look at the edge. I never noticed anything bad in terms of performance.
I just got the work sharp, so without knowing much I grinded knives on med-high revs with a bit of pressure. The ones needing a reprofile actually got pretty hot to the point where I could barely hold them. Now I wonder if that means I fucked up big time.

What is also interesting is that when I'm cutting cardboard at work, some knives get just as hot if not even hotter than that. But I guess the heat is dispersed since it's not only the edge/bevel that's heated.
My Spyderco PM2 came with a burned edge (2014) and microchipped badly. Sent it into Spyderco, they sharpened it through the burned part of the edge and its been good ever since.
I guess I never experienced catastrophic failures of that magnitude.
The only way around is wet grinding.

Note that some steels appear to be particularly sensitive to overheating by dry grinding, for example Magnacut.
Is this even possible with the work sharp? I know there's something like the Tormek, but damn, that thing's bulky and expensive compared to the former.

I can actually sharpen by hand and it's good enough for me. The purpose behind the belt system was to make quick work out of regrinding. But if it annihilates the heat treatment it's not very useful.

Also, bonus question to all: How much of the steel loses its heat treatment? Like, is it just a few hand sharpenings away or does the damage go very deep?
 
i think it really depends on what level of burnt you mean. ive heard that slight yellowing of the steel isn’t a ruined heat treat but if the steel turns blue then it’s game over
 
There are plenty of people that believe that ANY dry, powered grinding will ruin the HT at the very apex of the edge. If you buy into that school of thought, any discoloring of the steel means it's ruined.

🤷‍♂️
 
I just got the work sharp, so without knowing much I grinded knives on med-high revs with a bit of pressure. The ones needing a reprofile actually got pretty hot to the point where I could barely hold them. Now I wonder if that means I fucked up big time.

What is also interesting is that when I'm cutting cardboard at work, some knives get just as hot if not even hotter than that. But I guess the heat is dispersed since it's not only the edge/bevel that's heated.

I guess I never experienced catastrophic failures of that magnitude.

Is this even possible with the work sharp? I know there's something like the Tormek, but damn, that thing's bulky and expensive compared to the former.

I can actually sharpen by hand and it's good enough for me. The purpose behind the belt system was to make quick work out of regrinding. But if it annihilates the heat treatment it's not very useful.

Also, bonus question to all: How much of the steel loses its heat treatment? Like, is it just a few hand sharpenings away or does the damage go very deep?
From what I understand is its at the micro level.... So after a few hand sharpenings you will be good again.

It's ok for makers to grind bevels on the belt grinders, but the good ones (hand sharpen) the edges.

I grind as cool and wet as I can up to .015" or less behind the edge, then finish off on stones (wet) hand grinding/stoning my final edges.

*Yes..... my edges are wonky and wavey from doing it by Hand.... 😂😂😂
It's ok to use guided systems on bench stones, I just choose to do it freehand. I like very acute angles, so a guided system might not clamp low enough for me?
 
Last edited:
i think it really depends on what level of burnt you mean. ive heard that slight yellowing of the steel isn’t a ruined heat treat but if the steel turns blue then it’s game over
One knife has a slight yellow spot at the upper part of the convex edge. I've heard it doesn't need discoloration to be ruined.

From what I understand is its at the micro level.... So after a few hand sharpenings you will be good again.


*Yes..... my edges are wonky and wavey from doing it by Hand.... 😂😂😂
Well if it's mostly a surface thing, them I'm not worried.

You should've seen what I did to my ZT 223. I've never seen this blade shape anywhere; imagine grinding the last portion of the recurve flat, so it's like handle -> flat -> recurve -> tip

There are plenty of people that believe that ANY dry, powered grinding will ruin the HT at the very apex of the edge. If you buy into that school of thought, any discoloring of the steel means it's ruined.

🤷‍♂️
I've heard it can also happen without discoloring.
 
One knife has a slight yellow spot at the upper part of the convex edge. I've heard it doesn't need discoloration to be ruined.


Well if it's mostly a surface thing, them I'm not worried.

You should've seen what I did to my ZT 223. I've never seen this blade shape anywhere; imagine grinding the last portion of the recurve flat, so it's like handle -> flat -> recurve -> tip


I've heard it can also happen without discoloring.
Do you dip in water, at least when you are doing this?
*Every pass
 
I've got one of the older work sharp grinders, never had an issue burning the edges on my knives. I've gotten small pin stock pretty hot with it, but that's really leaning the material into the belt to hog off a lot of metal. As my freehand skills improved and I acquired better extra coarse and coarse stones I've moved away from using it to sharpen knives and just use it to tinker with other projects that require light grinding.
 
Do you dip in water, at least when you are doing this?
*Every pass
I did not do that. I revved the belt up, then took the blades needing a lot of material removed to it and just went back and forth a until I barely could hold onto the tip.


I've got one of the older work sharp grinders, never had an issue burning the edges on my knives. I've gotten small pin stock pretty hot with it, but that's really leaning the material into the belt to hog off a lot of metal. As my freehand skills improved and I acquired better extra coarse and coarse stones I've moved away from using it to sharpen knives and just use it to tinker with other projects that require light grinding.
Even like 120 is painfully slow to get chips out or reprofile an Italian stiletto to a zero convex grind.

Generally the work sharp is quite useful, because it's so fast and saves time.
 
I did not do that. I revved the belt up, then took the blades needing a lot of material removed to it and just went back and forth a until I barely could hold onto the tip.



Even like 120 is painfully slow to get chips out or reprofile an Italian stiletto to a zero convex grind.

Generally the work sharp is quite useful, because it's so fast and saves time.
Sorry. :/
 
Even like 120 is painfully slow to get chips out or reprofile an Italian stiletto to a zero convex grind.

Generally the work sharp is quite useful, because it's so fast and saves time.

Understand that completely, that's what I used mine for, the heavy reprofile and repair work. Baryonyx manticore and American mutt stones have, for my use, rendered my worksharp obsolete in that regard. I completely get why you like and use it.


Edited for redundancy
 
Last edited:
There are plenty of people that believe that ANY dry, powered grinding will ruin the HT at the very apex of the edge. If you buy into that school of thought, any discoloring of the steel means it's ruined.

🤷‍♂️
I heard of this before. Maybe there is truth to it, but I don't think if you take the slower approach like I do, one would even notice it.

There are also people saying that there are more micro cracks with every batoning strike or chop you make with your knife and you are killing your blade slowly. In reality I had never a knife break on me in more than two decades of knife use.
 
Without knowing what steel you’re using it’s hard to know what impact you might see with edge retention. On the steels I’ve been making knives out of (1095 mainly), if I remember correctly, a light straw to gold color is generally caused by temperatures on the high end of the normal tempering range. I have one user knife I made that got there in a spot while I was finishing it and I can’t tell any difference in performance during normal/reasonable use. If you turn an edge blue it’s essentially ruined and you then have an opportunity to practice re-profiling a blade. The old saying “there are no mistakes only smaller knives” applies at that point.
I quit using my worksharp because it always seemed to want to put a recurve in the knives I used it on. I got a decent guided hand sharpening setup and never looked back. It takes longer but ultimately does a much better job.
As far as what is happening on a microscopic level on the edge while using a belt to sharpen, that debate will rage on forever. A few passes on a decent stone and/or a good stropping session after you use the worksharp would be beneficial either way.
 
I stopped using my Worksharp KO on my nice knives. I'll still use them on some beater kitchen knives or if someone else asks me to sharpen their cheap knives.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/

For all my nice knives, I use the Wicked Edge.
That’s a good article you linked to. I’ve started grinding all the knives I make to nearly a zero grind then make one or two passes perpendicular to the belt to kill the edge. That (in theory) removes the overheated material at the apex and also allows me to get a good visual check of the thickness along the edge before I buff and sharpen. It might be entirely unnecessary but it makes me feel better anyway. I hand sharpen all of them.
 
I think sharpening with a dry belt is inevitably going to cost you a little bit of edge retention, but if you're careful I think it's probably not significant.

Steps you can take to minimize overheating:
1. Slow speed belt. I recommend always using the slowest speed on the WS;
2. Quick passes. I'd suggest moving the blade across the belt at least 1" per second;
3. Cool the blade. If you notice it getting warm, either dip the blade in water or wait a minute or two before continuing;
4. Watch the tip. The tip is the most vulnerable to overheating because there's less material around it to serve as a heat sink;
5. Treat your belts. Wood Turners Wonders sells a lubricant called Slick-Stick that's used to treat grinding wheels, belts and saw blades. I use it and it makes a noticeable difference.
 
It may also depend on what you are using the knife for. If you are cutting rope, a prudently used belt grinder may be OK. If you are opening cans, maybe not.
To confirm Nathan's statement that both methods can work I'd like to offer some evidence to the discussion. Years ago a good friend of mine who writes articles for various sporting magazines asked me to help him in a test. This was when those friction forged blades were just coming out, the ones that were changing the knife world forever (didn't much happen). He'd been invited to a large hog hunt put on by the maker where he took a good hog and was presented with a set of three of these knives as were all the other writers there. He wanted to try and quantify how much better these knives were then what was on the market. So the test he devised was for me to cut rope, I was the muscle and he did the tabulating. 5/8" sisal rope was cut and cut and cut. It was cut so much that we wrapped leather around the knife handles. Then we ended up using the leather wrapped handles and padded gloves. At the end of the two days we had two 55 gallon drums with 1/2" cut off pieces of sisal rope. We tested 12 knives total all from his personal collection, including one of my Rodeos (at that time from 440C at 58Rc, nowadays from AEB-L @62-63Rc), which was his personal edc. My friend, in a former life, was a well known and very well paid actor and he had a very significant and very drool worthy collection of custom knives as well as some factory knives to choose from. As a very avid hunter none of these were art knives but had been carried and used for the most part. We tested knives in FFG, hollow ground and convex ground. Each knife cut rope until it wouldn't cut rope. The backing was onto a fresh piece of fir 2x4 for each test. I then hand sharpened each knife (I was into water stones long before they were cool) and cut again until the knife would not cut. Each knife was cut with 4 times and how many cuts it made each time before it stopped cutting was recorded, with the average taken from the 3 highest for the final results. Part way through this very hand abusive couple of days I was running out of hand, I mean down right achy and the sharpening seemed to be causing more aching than the cutting. So in order to save my hands I would hand sharpen a blade 2 times and belt sharpen it the third time. It was always mixed up which of the three sharpening times was done on the belt. My method was and is done wet on a 220 silicone carbide belt and the burr wiped off on a buffer with green scratch remover basically just polishing the apex of the apex. Never more than two passes on the buffer. The results, for this discussion, were interesting in that no perceived difference presented itself. Sometime the belt sharpening out cut the hand sharpening, sometimes it didn't but in the 4 reps of cutting there was never enough difference, to make a difference, or to tell a difference if ya didn't know, which was which. In fact the results were so similar that we'd switched just to the belt sharpening by about halfway through the second day cause I was about done. Interestingly, for the point of the test, the regular knives of D2 made by the same outfit that made the friction forged blades out performed consistently, the friction forged blades which is probably why we don't hear some much about them anymore these days. He called and told them, but they didn't want to hear it and said that was impossible but the results were in. Anyhoo.

Can belt sharpening screw up an edge ABSOLUTELY, can it be done well, yep. I realize this isn't as scientific as the info presented by Larrin but I can personally testify to the blood sweat and tears involved. Not bad for a couple ol cowboys. Worst part I don't think he ever even wrote an article about it. He did buy the beer.

 
Back
Top