burr removal

[Slim7]

Sometimes burrs can be frustrating to completely remove. I am not talking about burrs that can be felt with finger tips, those kind of burrs can be removed with a stone to were they cannot be detected by the skin or nerves in the fingertips, but they can be felt, or detected by taking the edge and dragging the edge backwards/edge leading on the finger nail, you can feel that little micro-white line catch and you can see it very very lightly scraping on the nail. I am talking about to the very very fine white line/fin that can only be seen under a really bright light of a clear overhead light, i can see it most of the time with the naked eye, but sometimes it takes a 10x loupe. Imo, and i maybe wrong but one doesn't need a very expensive high powered microscope to see very very fine, fin/burr. A light will most certainly reveal any flashing or fussy bits. I read online that a human eye can see a candle wicks flame over a mile a way, if that's the case then one can detect a micro-fin/burr under a bright light. Some call this the burr root?? Maybe it is, because when i explained above about catching it on the nail by going backwards/edge trailing against the nail, well to feel it you have to tilt the knife at a way steeper angle that what you sharpened at, that means the burr root if you call it that is at an angle that more obtuse than the original angle you sharpened.


Anyways edge leading vs edge trailing, imo a burr will happen with either, not matter how hard you try, even if you're not aiming for a burr it will happen on a micro-level. In the straight razor hobby/world some think its taboo or cheating if you resort to a compressional substrate with paste or emulsion to remove that wire/fin, meaning some think if you dont finish on the stone and without ending up with that little micro-white line, then you have no skills at sharpening a razor. Sometimes even a abrasive loaded felt can be very difficult to remove that white line. I wanted to post this to hear another's response, not to argue, but i am here to learn, i am the type of fellow who always learns and always open to other people's suggestions and value their experiences.

 

[Jason B.]

Sometimes burrs can be frustrating to completely remove. I am not talking about burrs that can be felt with finger tips, those kind of burrs can be removed with a stone to were they cannot be detected by the skin or nerves in the fingertips, but they can be felt, or detected by taking the edge and dragging the edge backwards/edge leading on the finger nail, you can feel that little micro-white line catch and you can see it very very lightly scraping on the nail. I am talking about to the very very fine white line/fin that can only be seen under a really bright light of a clear overhead light, i can see it most of the time with the naked eye, but sometimes it takes a 10x loupe. Imo, and i maybe wrong but one doesn't need a very expensive high powered microscope to see very very fine, fin/burr. A light will most certainly reveal any flashing or fussy bits. I read online that a human eye can see a candle wicks flame over a mile a way, if that's the case then one can detect a micro-fin/burr under a bright light. Some call this the burr root?? Maybe it is, because when i explained above about catching it on the nail by going backwards/edge trailing against the nail, well to feel it you have to tilt the knife at a way steeper angle that what you sharpened at, that means the burr root if you call it that is at an angle that more obtuse than the original angle you sharpened.


Anyways edge leading vs edge trailing, imo a burr will happen with either, not matter how hard you try, even if you're not aiming for a burr it will happen on a micro-level. In the straight razor hobby/world some think its taboo or cheating if you resort to a compressional substrate with paste or emulsion to remove that wire/fin, meaning some think if you dont finish on the stone and without ending up with that little micro-white line, then you have no skills at sharpening a razor. Sometimes even a abrasive loaded felt can be very difficult to remove that white line. I wanted to post this to hear another's response, not to argue, but i am here to learn, i am the type of fellow who always learns and always open to other people's suggestions and value their experiences.

I understand very well what you are speaking of.

It is a burr just a small one. To understand its size you must first understand that the burr will be relative in size to the abrasive being used. If you have used a 2 micron stone to finish and you move to a 1 micron paste then you have to work past the 2 micron level on the steel and create a 1 micron surface on the steel. This whole time you will be creating a burr at the edge but this burr will become smaller and smaller until it is wiped clean at the apex with the full transition to a 1 micron finish. Most of the time this burr is present from an incomplete scratch pattern or too much pressure. It also might not be the scratch pattern of the abrasive in current use but sometimes two or three steps back where that coarser grind didn't fully transition to the next finer grit.

Now that is by far a perfect situation, factors like steel type, hardness, abrasive choice and the usage of pressure tend to muddy the water. The use of pressure typically being the biggest factor in burr formation and most often overlooked as the simplest solution. More times than not, simply using less sharpening pressure will stop the burr from forming all together.

 

[kreisler]

yeah burrs are stubborn ...…...…...………......

erh... what was the question ?

 

[garry3]

Sometimes burrs can be frustrating to completely remove. I am not talking about burrs that can be felt with finger tips, those kind of burrs can be removed with a stone to were they cannot be detected by the skin or nerves in the fingertips, but they can be felt, or detected by taking the edge and dragging the edge backwards/edge leading on the finger nail, you can feel that little micro-white line catch and you can see it very very lightly scraping on the nail. I am talking about to the very very fine white line/fin that can only be seen under a really bright light of a clear overhead light, i can see it most of the time with the naked eye, but sometimes it takes a 10x loupe. Imo, and i maybe wrong but one doesn't need a very expensive high powered microscope to see very very fine, fin/burr. A light will most certainly reveal any flashing or fussy bits. I read online that a human eye can see a candle wicks flame over a mile a way, if that's the case then one can detect a micro-fin/burr under a bright light. Some call this the burr root?? Maybe it is, because when i explained above about catching it on the nail by going backwards/edge trailing against the nail, well to feel it you have to tilt the knife at a way steeper angle that what you sharpened at, that means the burr root if you call it that is at an angle that more obtuse than the original angle you sharpened.


Anyways edge leading vs edge trailing, imo a burr will happen with either, not matter how hard you try, even if you're not aiming for a burr it will happen on a micro-level. In the straight razor hobby/world some think its taboo or cheating if you resort to a compressional substrate with paste or emulsion to remove that wire/fin, meaning some think if you dont finish on the stone and without ending up with that little micro-white line, then you have no skills at sharpening a razor. Sometimes even a abrasive loaded felt can be very difficult to remove that white line. I wanted to post this to hear another's response, not to argue, but i am here to learn, i am the type of fellow who always learns and always open to other people's suggestions and value their experiences.

You are probably right at some level we are probably always creating a burr off of a stone.

Edge trailing does raise more of a burr or wire edge but is also a potentially sharper apex. Sharpeners remove burrs using both.

Before Japanese water stones became popular there was probably a whole generation of knife sharpeners that learned to sharpen a knife on Arkansas stones by using alternating edge leading strokes and never felt the need to deburr at all. At what point can we stop caring? What criteria is it that a knife or tool is sharp enough and burr free? If you are chasing a level 5 HHT edge everything will matter. Different goals for different people.

IMHO if you are creating a wire edge on a straight razor and then using a soft loaded strop that compresses to remove the wire edge you are indeed doing it wrong. If it works for you and you are happy with it is all that matters though.

 

[Slim7]

You are probably right at some level we are probably always creating a burr off of a stone.

Edge trailing does raise more of a burr or wire edge but is also a potentially sharper apex. Sharpeners remove burrs using both.

Before Japanese water stones became popular there was probably a whole generation of knife sharpeners that learned to sharpen a knife on Arkansas stones by using alternating edge leading strokes and never felt the need to deburr at all. At what point can we stop caring? What criteria is it that a knife or tool is sharp enough and burr free? If you are chasing a level 5 HHT edge everything will matter. Different goals for different people.

IMHO if you are creating a wire edge on a straight razor and then using a soft loaded strop that compresses to remove the wire edge you are indeed doing it wrong. If it works for you and you are happy with it is all that matters though.

On Straight razors, i don't aim for a burr, but sometimes it happens or should i say 'most' of the time, i am talking about on a very very micro small level. Imo stropping on substrate with compound is must, it enhances the edge and cleans that micro-white line, but sometimes its very difficult on plain softer carbon steel blades, even with a loaded strop.Same with knife sharpening, even if i am not aiming to raise one it will happen, one doesn't have to raise a burr (meaning burr method of sharpening) to get sharp even on a knife. I dont own any exotic very hard steels yet, lol.I am referring to something so small that most don't see or just ignore, but its there, it can't be felt with the skin on the fingers. Dragging through wood doesn't remove it, it removes traces of it because you can see metal swarf in the wood after you drag it through, but that dreaded micro-white line is still there. Its like its so small it's on a more obtuse angle than what the knife was sharpened at, because it can be felt when you take the knive and go at a stropping or edge leading stroke against the finger nail but you have to raise the knife to a higher angle for the burr to catch. IMO that tells me that the burr or i should say root/base of the burr is more robust that the entire height of the burr, meaning the root of the burr isn't easily 'moved', for example it isn't fragile enough to move just by blowing on the burr, like for example the top portion of the burr.

I hope i am making sense, but its hard to articulate it, lol. I may be totally wrong, but its just my observations.Anyways i think stropping with a abrasive is indeed sharpening as well and is must to get a burr free edges, some softer steels can be a pita even with strops and abrasives. With straight razors a plain clean leather and linen, will most certainly reveal a micro-fin coming off the stones, because it will stand up the fin and reveal it more when held to the light. The root/base is robust and clean linen and leather will not remove it, doesn't have the horsepower that abrasives have. I do think that clean linen and leather will remove the upper part, or weaker portions of the top of the burr, but again one should not have a burr so pronounced with a straight razor, because you're not aiming to get one, but it still happens, but on a very very small scale.

 

[Jason B.]

Again, it's a burr, realative to the size of the abrasive being used, pressure being exerted, hardness of the steel and quality of the stone. Once you learn to control all these things by varying the others you will learn to remove the burr or "little white line as you call it.

Also, sharpening "with no burr" is IMPOSSIBLE and anyone that say otherwise simply does not understand how it all works.

 

[Slim7]

Again, it's a burr, realative to the size of the abrasive being used, pressure being exerted, hardness of the steel and quality of the stone. Once you learn to control all these things by varying the others you will learn to remove the burr or "little white line as you call it.

Also, sharpening "with no burr" is IMPOSSIBLE and anyone that say otherwise simply does not understand how it all works.

Impossible, no its not. I understand how it works, rub steel on rock until sharp. Use finger tips to judge sharpness, cut paper with the grain and against the grain. Everytime i post something on here (once a year) i have my run in with you. You didn't write the book or bible on sharpening Mr., you are not the authority of sharpening, but you always have some smart*** to say. Making assumptions on what i know or don't know is wrong.

 

[willc]

Again, it's a burr, realative to the size of the abrasive being used, pressure being exerted, hardness of the steel and quality of the stone. Once you learn to control all these things by varying the others you will learn to remove the burr or "little white line as you call it.

Also, sharpening "with no burr" is IMPOSSIBLE and anyone that say otherwise simply does not understand how it all works.

I would not say impossible.
If someone had the time and patience and very good magnification and lighting it could be pulled off.
But I don’t know any sharpener that would go to these lengths especially because I cannot see it giving any advantage.

The burr is a signpost or signal to tell me the edge is getting there.

 

[garry3]

On Straight razors, i don't aim for a burr, but sometimes it happens or should i say 'most' of the time, i am talking about on a very very micro small level. Imo stropping on substrate with compound is must, it enhances the edge and cleans that micro-white line, but sometimes its very difficult on plain softer carbon steel blades, even with a loaded strop.Same with knife sharpening, even if i am not aiming to raise one it will happen, one doesn't have to raise a burr (meaning burr method of sharpening) to get sharp even on a knife. I dont own any exotic very hard steels yet, lol.I am referring to something so small that most don't see or just ignore, but its there, it can't be felt with the skin on the fingers. Dragging through wood doesn't remove it, it removes traces of it because you can see metal swarf in the wood after you drag it through, but that dreaded micro-white line is still there. Its like its so small it's on a more obtuse angle than what the knife was sharpened at, because it can be felt when you take the knive and go at a stropping or edge leading stroke against the finger nail but you have to raise the knife to a higher angle for the burr to catch. IMO that tells me that the burr or i should say root/base of the burr is more robust that the entire height of the burr, meaning the root of the burr isn't easily 'moved', for example it isn't fragile enough to move just by blowing on the burr, like for example the top portion of the burr.

I hope i am making sense, but its hard to articulate it, lol. I may be totally wrong, but its just my observations.Anyways i think stropping with a abrasive is indeed sharpening as well and is must to get a burr free edges, some softer steels can be a pita even with strops and abrasives. With straight razors a plain clean leather and linen, will most certainly reveal a micro-fin coming off the stones, because it will stand up the fin and reveal it more when held to the light. The root/base is robust and clean linen and leather will not remove it, doesn't have the horsepower that abrasives have. I do think that clean linen and leather will remove the upper part, or weaker portions of the top of the burr, but again one should not have a burr so pronounced with a straight razor, because you're not aiming to get one, but it still happens, but on a very very small scale.

Your having issues honing to a shaving edge and are looking for confirmation for a soft loaded strop used in such a way that it will round your apex. It's a crutch to shaving sharp. Nothing wrong with using loaded stops to shave with and their use probably goes back to more than two hundred years. But they were not used like you are using them. You simply wouldn't be doing it if you were getting good edges coming off your hones. All you would need is twenty laps or so on a hanging leather strop.

My recommendation would be to work on it and get it figured out. Reach out to someone with more experience.

 

[Slim7]

Your having issues honing to a shaving edge and are looking for confirmation for a soft loaded strop used in such a way that it will round your apex. It's a crutch to shaving sharp. Nothing wrong with using loaded stops to shave with and their use probably goes back to more than two hundred years. But they were not used like you are using them. You simply wouldn't be doing it if you were getting good edges coming off your hones. All you would need is twenty laps or so on a hanging leather strop.

My recommendation would be to work on it and get it figured out. Reach out to someone with more experience.

Happy with my edges, even with a good 8k, but i like sharper, emulsions, powdered abrasives enhance an edge past to what the stones can give. No matter if its a knife or a razor. With a knife i like toothy edges, with a little bit of polish. Stop at 1200 grit diamond and finish on 1um diamond for a polished toothy edge, to me this enhances an edge for me .Pasted basswood or Balsa wood will not round an apex of a razor, maybe on a nano microconvexing level (like science of sharp explains) But with pressure used for honing a razor they will not be much 'give' in this type of substrate. Off the stones yes it can be executed, meaning no micro-burr, that flashes back under a bright overhead light with a good 10x loupe, after clean leather and linen, but sometimes you can see bits of shiny's flashing back at you, you can fight it and go back to the hones or you can try an abrade it off with a loaded firm strop.

I did throw in razors later in the post, but knives is mostly what i was referring to. Simple steels no supersteels, i haven't graduated to that yet, nor do i own any yet

 

[garry3]

Happy with my edges, even with a good 8k, but i like sharper, emulsions, powdered abrasives enhance an edge past to what the stones can give. No matter if its a knife or a razor. With a knife i like toothy edges, with a little bit of polish. Stop at 1200 grit diamond and finish on 1um diamond for a polished toothy edge, to me this enhances an edge for me .Pasted basswood or Balsa wood will not round an apex of a razor, maybe on a nano microconvexing level (like science of sharp explains) But with pressure used for honing a razor they will not be much 'give' in this type of substrate. Off the stones yes it can be executed, meaning no micro-burr, that flashes back under a bright overhead light with a good 10x loupe, after clean leather and linen, but sometimes you can see bits of shiny's flashing back at you, you can fight it and go back to the hones or you can try an abrade it off with a loaded firm strop.

I did throw in razors later in the post, but knives is mostly what i was referring to. Simple steels no supersteels, i haven't graduated to that yet, nor do i own any yet

LOL! Not sure I'm qualified to take this deep of a dive into the finer points of edges and we are literally splitting hairs.

"Off the stones yes it can be executed, meaning no micro-burr, that flashes back under a bright overhead light with a good 10x loupe, after clean leather and linen, but sometimes you can see bits of shiny's flashing back at you, "

Yes, any slight imperfection or damage to the edge that wasn't honed out will reflect light. It can also be caused by the hone it's self. That's really the only reason I use magnification at all, to see what a new hone is doing. It's pretty important to clean the edge really well before looking at it too. If you are seeing light reflected back at you looking straight down the edge give the blade a good wipe down and see if it is still there. Personally, I don't chase every little imperfection I see under magnification. There are those that do though.

An edge left with some tooth and the burr removed is really what I think most do with knifes. Just what that is and means will vary to different people and it may vary with the knife and intended use also. When I strop a knife I just use newspaper because I feel like a loaded strop takes away to much of the tooth. Lots of ways to get different edges.

 

[000Robert]

To remove a burr, cut something. I cut a couple of pieces of either my 2" HD Poly webbing strap, or 2" HD Nylon webbing strap. I built a little strap holder for them. It works great. Then I usually carve up some printer paper or cigarette rolling paper.