Buses Elmax - Interesting results, What's your favorite DPS for Bushcrafting?

freehouse32

freehouse32

Joined
Sep 7, 2016
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423
I had some interesting results using Busse Elmax to make some feather sticks on twigs. Unfortunately, I had a few cocktails in me and did not take proper pictures so you will just have to take my word for it.

I was doing some testing on degrees per side (DPS) for a Max Duty and a Max Warden. I sharpened both blades on a KME sharpener to .1 micron on the leather strop. The Max Duty got a 13.5 DPS and the Max Warden got a 15 DPS.

I was making some feather sticks with both of them and they cut through like butter and did just fine, I made a few feather sticks with each then went to touch them up on a leather strop. When I touched them up I realized that the 15 DPS Max warden had encountered some rolling and created a burr that was snagging the strop. Like I said I had some drinks in me so I didn't think twice about it and put it on a stone and fixed the rolling and proceeded back to the strop, (forgot to take pics).

The Max Duty which was at 13.5 DPS had no issues and was still razor sharp and begging for more. I didn't do anything different between the two and I were using the same twigs. Any idea what may have caused this? Could it be user error? At times I would use my thumb on the spine with a slight rolling motion to see how to find I could cut strips of wood but I was doing this on both blades. This is no way a knock to the steel because both held up just fine. The Max Warden at a higher DPS just happened to have some slight rolling which fixed right up.

So the main questions are why would this happen on the higher DPS blade and no the lower? Just circumstantial? Once an area is rolled and repaired is there any degradation to that area for the remainder of that edge/shoulder until it is re-profiled or resharpened?

What is your preferred edge for bushcrafting? I still need to do more testing but I definitely did not expect the elmax to roll at 15DPS when people are chopping at 15 DPS with no issues, but then again the 13.5 DPS did not roll...

ORtTlxe.jpg

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freehouse32 said:
So the main questions are why would this happen on the higher DPS blade and no the lower? Just circumstantial? Once an area is rolled and repaired is there any degradation to that area for the remainder of that edge/shoulder until it is re-profiled or resharpened?

What is your preferred edge for bushcrafting? I still need to do more testing but I definitely did not expect the elmax to roll at 15DPS when people are chopping at 15 DPS with no issues, but then again the 13.5 DPS did not roll...
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My first thought is that it may be due to random variability and error in your test. If you increased the sample and repeated the tests, you may find variance in what DPS edges are rolling under what circumstances.

My second thought is that if all else were equal, a more obtuse edge angle will by its nature have a % thicker steel, and a perhaps undetectable amount of increased force is placed on that surface which may have resulted in rolling.

My third thought is that I am not sure if the KME is creating a bevel relative to the spine, relative to the degree of angle of the face of the blade, or otherwise. Hence, despite your assessment of the edge angle, it may or may not be the "true" angle relative to the spine, in which case the assumptions of the question are invalidated. Thickness behind the edge may also matter and result in distinct forces placed on the apex during cutting.

As to your second question, an edge that has rolled and then been reset on a ceramic hone can reliably hold for another 10 to 15 sessions prior to dulling. Depending on use, this happens sooner. With every action against the edge, there will be wear to the metal. I expect you will not necessarily need to resharpen it frequently, but that you may do so anyway since you have the capability. They should hold up well for some time and still be sharper than most edges out there in the fray!

Use it and tell us!
 
Very knowledgeable response. Thx.

Both blades have the same thickness. The Max duty is a wider blade but both are very similar in all other regards. The distance from the hollow grind to the edge is about 1mm wider on the Max Duty than on the Max Warden.

Also, the "test" was in no way scientific or intended to be. I was just cutting some sticks with two different angles with the main purpose to test which stays sharper longer.
 
I would say though that rolling at that thickness is an excellent property. I have had experience with Elmax ground very thin, by another maker, that was chipping with very little provocation. Other users have reported Busse elmax chipping that low as well, but the wood species and relative hardness probably plays a large role in that outcome, as would your technique.
 
Interesting, I didn't think 13.5 and 15 DPS would be too low for Elmax for lighter work. The twigs were soft and from a birch tree I have in my yard...

I definetly understand about technique being a factor but I don't think I have bad technique and like to think I am aware of what to do and not to do...... Could be wrong though... lol, I did have some drinks in me :)
 
Birch is definitely a good wood for that as compared to dry old oak :)

Good steels will roll with good technique. It is chipping that is an issue. I don't consider rolling to be anything but the normal behavior of most steels during and after use.
 
I took my Scrapmax to 15 dps with great results, but I don't do any hard use with it... that's what my mistress is for 😈
 
I will be beaten for this response, but here it goes.

I don't think shaving sharp blades are really practical for bushcraft and wood working (except very fine artistic carving etc.). With the advent of guided sharpeners everyone gets all excited about sharpening degrees and mirror polished edges. Folks like to brag and put up videos of their favorite steel cutting wood or metal and then shaving and slicing tomatoes paper thin etc. Usually these videos show them shaving with a different part of the blade than the part that did the heavy labor. I defy anyone to baton or chop through the any significant volume of the oak that grows around my place and then shave with the same part of the blade, not with infi, not with 3v, not with your magical heat treatment, nada. A usably sharp blade with a little tooth to it is the best for hard outdoor use not confined to skinning imo.

Part 2
I like a convex edge for cutting hard stuff, it's more durable and less likely to roll.
 
That would be almost 100% guaranteed to be sharpening error. It would have been likely that there was an undetectable burr that you had sharpened to and not removed, which can usually be spotted by seeing if it shaves both directions… in which case it would only work one way if there is burr.
 
I get what you are saying here and agree for the most part. I just want to clarify that is not how I see myself. I am just trying to experiment and learn and see where the bottom line for my blades fall. Where I can expect to have the lowest DPS and still great durability. The whole reason I started buying high-end knives instead of the cheap ones is to maximize the use of the quality steel. Its like haveing a hot rod and never going over 40 mph with it. There are plenty of cheap knives and designs I LOVE but they just don't have the quality steel that I am looking for.

I am of the thought that if you have it use it. If there is room to improve my edge angles and I know how, then I should do it, after all, its why I am using a Busse and not a new age Gerber/Fiskars. Gerber makes some great blades but I won't take very many of them past 20dps. So to me what is the point of getting a Busse and leaving it at 20DPS. There is plenty of data out there that show that two knives that are very similar if not the same will perform the same even if one is super expensive using the best material and the other is cheap using cheap material. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule but a pretty good knife at 20 DPS will perform about or close to the same as the same knife in the best of materials at 20 DPS. The big difference in there is the cost of the knife and the material difference which go hand in hand. So since I spend the premium money I feel I'm obligated to find that peak performance edge. This is, of course, is my train of thought. But I'm still with you about the fools who use different parts of the blade for cutting task and are like hey look at what I can do. It just makes me chuckle...

I agree about the rolling. It shows how nice the steel is vs chipping another reason I sold most of my knives and have gone the Busse route. I just wish SR-101 didn't rust as easy so I can have more blades :) in Florida, it does not take long to get spots on the blade... If not for weather I would have an SR101 ARMY!!!! lol

mach 5 said:
I will be beaten for this response, but here it goes.

I don't think shaving sharp blades are really practical for bushcraft and wood working (except very fine artistic carving etc.). With the advent of guided sharpeners everyone gets all excited about sharpening degrees and mirror polished edges. Folks like to brag and put up videos of their favorite steel cutting wood or metal and then shaving and slicing tomatoes paper thin etc. Usually these videos show them shaving with a different part of the blade than the part that did the heavy labor. I defy anyone to baton or chop through the any significant volume of the oak that grows around my place and then shave with the same part of the blade, not with infi, not with 3v, not with your magical heat treatment, nada. A usably sharp blade with a little tooth to it is the best for hard outdoor use not confined to skinning imo.

Part 2
I like a convex edge for cutting hard stuff, it's more durable and less likely to roll.
Click to expand...
 
I am certain that this was not a sharpening issue. After working through my stone progressions the last 4 steps I take are all kangaroo leather strops.

First I do not go to the next stone progression until all the scratch marks are uniform and going in the same direction and the burr for that side is 100% rolled over or gone, then like I already stated I use the leather strops which are very fine and hang up on the slightest burr.

When I am done with progressions and the blade in general I inspect to make sure there are no burr using a 10x loupe. There was just no way it was a undetectable burr.

Maggot Brain said:
That would be almost 100% guaranteed to be sharpening error. It would have been likely that there was an undetectable burr that you had sharpened to and not removed, which can usually be spotted by seeing if it shaves both directions… in which case it would only work one way if there is burr.
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Did you measure how thick the blades are behind the edge?
Are you sure that you used the same force/motion or might there have been some lateral movement?

Somehow I cannot find any interesting information here. Damn alcohol!

But yea - I think 15 dps is kinda very little for Elmax.
INFI is so much tougher.
Elmax shines in edge retention and corrosion resistance while being moderately tough (quite tough for stainless, but never comparable to INFI).

Has anybody some scientific testing with BUSSE Elmax yet?
I can imagine that their HT might be better than the Elmax I experienced before (ZT, BRK, ...)
 
Thickness behind the edge at the bevel on the Max Duty is .0155

Thickness behind the edge at the bevel on teh Max Warden is .0195

Yes. Too bad for the hooch messing up stuff... lol
 
If not sharpening related on your part, it could have been the edge was weakened a bit when power sharpened and or lasered (blanks cut) at the shop… this is pretty common issue with production knives as the speed of sharpening is important. I would cut the edge off past the damage, then regrind the edge and reaped… repeat the use which caused the damage and note if the results are now different. It may even take a few sets of doing this process the get rid of the damage, there are people who immediately grind off the steel at the edge to get rid of any possibly weakened metal just to save some headaches.
 
That is good to know, that is new knowledge for me thank you. Would Busse be considered custom or semi-custom??? It seems like each blade gets its very own TLC from Busse, I know a level of everything is automated but I thought everything outside of that automation was done by hand and individuals?

Maggot Brain said:
If not sharpening related on your part, it could have been the edge was weakened a bit when power sharpened and or lasered (blanks cut) at the shop… this is pretty common issue with production knives as the speed of sharpening is important. I would cut the edge off past the damage, then regrind the edge and reaped… repeat the use which caused the damage and note if the results are now different. It may even take a few sets of doing this process the get rid of the damage, there are people who immediately grind off the steel at the edge to get rid of any possibly weakened metal just to save some headaches.
Click to expand...
 
I consider them to be production knives for the most part, even most of the 'Custom's' are blanked out and rough ground by CNC machine and then hand finished/handled. That would possibly be considered custom to some folks, but true custom prices from the shop are $100 per inch from what I've seen… made to order per your specs.
 
Off the data I provided. It seems like the Max duty should be the stronger of the two, not that either is weak. Am I correct? I am still new to the technical side once it passes the ole eyeball test....
 
The knife with the greater thickness behind the edge bevel will have the most strength at the edge, due to strength being proportional to cross section. Now it is non linear, so the thicker of the two will actually be much stronger near the edge. That being said, you suffered an apex failure so that measurement is of little value as the damage did not carry into the primary grind.
 
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