Bushing or no bushing in slipjoint

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Dec 4, 2013
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Hey guys got a question for the slipjoint guys.
I have googled and searched and seems alot of mixed bag of people either using or not using bushings in there slip joints.
Can anyone give me the plus and minus of using them?
Im kind of leaning towards not using them as Im just gettimg started making slipjoints but want some input.
I read where some guys are reaming pivot hole with a number 41 reamer so the pivot pin dosnt tighten up to much.
Thanks for any info.
Justin
 
I've done both, and they both work fine. Without the bushing if you over peen you can swell the pivot pin in the blade pivot hole. This is however a pain to drill out the pin and make a new one. With a bushing more work is involved to fit the bushing however with a couple thousandths shoulder on each side of the blade pivot when it's peened it locks the bushing against the liners and allows the blade to move smooth and free around the bushing. A properly fitted bushing will produce a smooth operating centered blade.
 
I have been making them without bushings and fairly often run into the issue mentioned above, and also peen too tight and have to slacken to get the action right. I am planning to gather the necessary tools to start using bushings soon.
 
One thing that helped me understand the bushing working principle is a tutorial by Tony Bose...definitely worth checking out because he has some helpful tips along with the photos.
 
......With a bushing more work is involved to fit the bushing however with a couple thousandths shoulder on each side of the blade pivot when it's peened it locks the bushing against the liners and allows the blade to move smooth and free around the bushing......

The bushing is a thou or two thicker than the blade thickness so as the pin is peened the bushing locks against the liner - is that correct? Then you still have to be VERY careful not to over peen the pin so it swells inside the bushing making it tight. Would it work if you made the bushing the same thickness as the blade, then peening the pin to lock pin to bushing which allows the bushing to rotate inside the blade.

Just looking for guidance here.
 
The bushing is a thou or two thicker than the blade thickness so as the pin is peened the bushing locks against the liner - is that correct? Then you still have to be VERY careful not to over peen the pin so it swells inside the bushing making it tight. Would it work if you made the bushing the same thickness as the blade, then peening the pin to lock pin to bushing which allows the bushing to rotate inside the blade.

Just looking for guidance here.

No, in most cases, you don't have to be concerned with over-swelling the pin, because the way most of us make them, the blade tang is riding over the bushing as a "pivot", so you actually, want to lock down the bushing. That's the biggest advantage of this construction methodology; you can peen as heavy as you want without splitting your handle material, and really lock down the pivot area, which with traditional peened pivot, is more likely to work loose, or not be right in the first place.

However, you can make just as good a knife with either method, the bushing is a little more upfront work, depending on how you do it, but gives you some piece of mind, especially with certain construction methods and materials, that you wont have to worry about over-peening, and "locking up" the blade when you peen the pivot pin (when it's riding on this pin without the bushing). After a particularly stubbon pivot you either can't get to not rotate in the hole or hide correctly, bushing construction starts to look pretty appealing.

I've been slowly transitioning to bushings for this reason, not because you can't hide a traditional pivot just as well in your bolsters, and not because it's inherently stronger (it probably is, but the overwhelming majority of all slipjoints ever made, were done without bushings, many still working great a hundred years or more later), but because if you set things up right, pinning the pivot is reasonably foolproof, and it allows you some interesting options, like say, an sterling silver or 18k gold "pivot" pin, locking down a more suitable (for wear, gold or silver isn't an option for an actual pivot) bushing pivot.

Compared to soft pin material, there's some reasonable expectation that over time a bushing is more durable also, but that depends on the bushing material and construction. Bronze makes a great bearing material, and if the receiving pivot hole in the tang is properly finished, I'm sure will hold up very very well, helps get that slick action without as much luck or break-in, and is what many people use. Personally I make my own bushings out of full hard (tempered just enough to relieve stress) O-1.

When things are done correctly, I can peen the ever-living shit out the "pin", locking the bushing down, having the tang hole reamed just enough for the blade to pivot over the bushing, and have zero potential blade wobble at the tang, an everything locked up nicely, with less chance of it loosening up after break in. However, if there is a problem, in my experience, it's a bit trickier to drill out and re-do.
 
OK Javan, I think I'm understanding what you're saying about bushing. It seems the same as when I've used a bushing.
Peening the pin makes the swells the pin inside the bushing, so the bushing and pin because almost as one unit allowing the blade to rotate around the bushing. That's what I've understood the advantage of a bushing. I've built slipjoints both ways, with and without bushing. When peening without bushing I tend to peen until the blade just starts to bind a tad. Then with the folder at half stop, tap very lightly with hammer (small hammer) to loosen the pin/blade just a tad. That's a trick Tony Bose showed us at Blade a couple yrs ago in one of his seminars. That was the best money I ever spent!
 
Yes...Javan got it right and you are understanding it correctly.

Like Mr Hanson said they work best on paper but a pain in the ass!!! Good call Don...:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Thank you all for taking the time to comment some good info for sure. Is there a good source for bushings besides knife and gun I dont seem to find them anywhere else.
 
A bushing is the best pivot...on paper. But I find them to be a pain in the ass!
I've made a handful of slipjoints with bushings, but well over a thousand without.
I was hoping you would comment I seen some old post where you did. What size hole in the tang are you reaming for the pivot with 3/32 pins if you dont mind me asking?
 
I was hoping you would comment I seen some old post where you did. What size hole in the tang are you reaming for the pivot with 3/32 pins if you dont mind me asking?

Drill with a #43 twist drill, and then ream with a 3/32 reamer. Use good, bright finish, dimensionally accurate pin stock, and you should have a snug but not tight fit. I like to drill my holes before HT, and ream afterwards with a carbide reamer personally, to avoid potential decarb in the hole, and I find I get a nicer finish.

That's for a traditional peened pivot pin.
 
Drill with a #43 twist drill, and then ream with a 3/32 reamer. Use good, bright finish, dimensionally accurate pin stock, and you should have a snug but not tight fit. I like to drill my holes before HT, and ream afterwards with a carbide reamer personally, to avoid potential decarb in the hole, and I find I get a nicer finish.

That's for a traditional peened pivot pin.
hmmm, I've been reaming with a .097 reamer
pretty certain that's what I was taught, I'll have to check my notes

that's kind of a big difference, 3/32 vs .097...
 
Well, doesn't the size of the hole in the blade depend a lot on OD of bushing? I'd expect perhaps a thou clearance? Couple thou?
 
I was hoping you would comment I seen some old post where you did. What size hole in the tang are you reaming for the pivot with 3/32 pins if you dont mind me asking?
I ream pivot holes with a 3/32" reamer. It doesn't need to be sloppy if everything is flat & parallel.
I'm also not giving up on bushings, will revisit that soon.
 
One extra step I take is to lap both the blade pivot hole that will rotate around the bushing and also the pivot pin hole takes an extra minute but the fit is worth the extra effort.

Agreed that 5 thou is excessive!!!
 
Is it safe to assume you are reaming the liners and handle material with the same reamer as the blade pivot?

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me.
 
Since switching to a bushing construction about 3 years ago, life became a lot easier! I do exactly the same as T.Bose does and it works every time without any problems. Ive never had a blade lock up on me again.
Bushings from knife and gun are great too.
 
5 thou is way too much IMO also, but I have heard of guys wanting a "loose" fit, and then swelling things up a little bit when peening (still, not 5 thou, I'm guessing you guys were using pin stock that was slightly oversized Harbeer). You've got some latitude to do this with certain construction methodologies, like all stainless, with pinned or screw attached scales, where you pin everything together, and then finish grind it all together as an already constructed knife. I think this allows some fudge room for improperly aligned holes in the various components, but ultimately I don't agree with this approach, and I think you can often see this in the fine detail of a knife made this way. Little gaps, or alignment issues here or there. Stuff most people will consider acceptable, but that puts it a few percent away from 99/100, IMO.

With the materials and methods I use, where every individual component (blade, spring, liners, scales, etc) has to be completely and finely finished before gluing the scales to the liners, and finally pinning it all together (that's the absolute last step, no room to clean up afterwards), for instance with damascus or other etched materials, and ivory or pearl. I have no room to clean up anything that gets skewed. I want everything as tight and dimensionally accurate as possible to start with. If something goes out of whack when I pin it, even a tiny amount due to smacking the pivot or spring pins in such a way that they swell unevenly or upset excessively, I've got to rip it all apart, fix whatever damage I did in doing so, and try again.

It also precludes me from using a lot of "tip alignment" tricks, that rely on intentionally "skewing" the pivot pin, or shifting it after it's nailed together. I can't "grind the tip" to center on closed either, which you can easily do when using mono-steel construction. Don know's what I'm talking about here. ;)



With a bushing, you want the bushing to fit inside the tang hole, tight enough to stay in on it's own, with just enough clearance to rotate. Any more than this, and you risk there being some bounce/wobble in any position you can feel as looseness when you go to rotate the blade to the next position, it'll "rock" in the position a little, if it's bad enough, you'll have side-to-side blade wobble in the open position.

With or without a bushing, I don't personally find it necessary to ream bolsters/liners. In a perfect world, you want to swell the pin to fill a tapered hole in the bolsters regardless, however, you don't want an oversized hole here, so I typically do ream it, JIC, to avoid alignment issues. If this hole is oversized enough to allow the temp pins to wobble, it may shift when peening.

Regardless, the more slop you have, the more likely a pin is to swell or tilt unevenly when it is peened, which'll have you wondering what you screwed up previously, when one liner is slightly higher than the other, or you tip lands a tiny bit crooked after peening. If you nail everything together and then grind the blade, finish grind the liners/scales on you'll never notice it most likely, but it's really limiting your range, and you'll play hell when you try to use more exotic materials later.

I honestly believe that's why you see certain top slipjoint makers never branching out with certain materials, their methods simply don't allow good results with them. That's fine, they've learned to do things a certain way and get great results. For me, being able to utilize complex materials and tricky/different construction styles is much of the appeal though.
 
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