How To Business Experience

Horsewright

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
13,291
Often here in Shop Talk there are questions about running a knife business making and selling knives. Or what to do if this happens etc. We've been involved in this deal along time (Horsewright has been in business 20 years now), and have seen just about everything. A recent experience is detailed here. Pour yourself a cup of coffee, lace a little bourbon in there and give er a read.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/paypal-done-good-no-not-really.1684894/#post-19271850
 
Has anyone started using these new systems for sending money straight from a personal bank through email? I just bought a truck and that's how the wanted the down payment.
 
Has anyone started using these new systems for sending money straight from a personal bank through email? I just bought a truck and that's how the wanted the down payment.
There are many ways to send & receive electronic payments. I use PayPal & Square Card reader for payments from customers in the field. Never had a problem..
 
Horsewright! I check all charges one a week and recheck going back 90 days. Glad it worked out! It’s strange that the party who used Mommy’s card is at the local PD. Your couldn’t make this stuff up! LOL Glad you got your money..
 
Glad it worked out in the end. I've been using Paypal for longer than I can remember, and while I don't agree with everything they do, or some of their political stances, there just really isn't a better alternative at the moment. As a seller, I don't recall every having a charge disputed, though I've had money charged FROM my account, after my paypal debit card number was apparently stolen on at least 2 occasions. Each time, paypal has refunded the balance and sent me a new card.

Their shipping set up is just about as convenient as it gets as well.
 
Yeah we use Square too at shows. Like that outfit so much bought some shares years back. Done well with them. Thanks Drew.
 
I'm glad you got your $$ back Dave. It's stupid that you had to do the work to make it happen though. PP should be more capable of sorting the crap out properly.
I got reading the Heath Helton 47 page thread after your account. What a crap show. Something is wrong when someone can pull that much crap and get away with it.
 
I am going to take a slightly different approach to this - which might not be too popular - but i pose it as food for thought. We obviously want all things to be “perfect” .. to get your money when you send a knife out. But things can always go wrong: there are bad actors out there, and mis-communications happen (as in this case). If, as people seem to indicate, in the vast majority of cases transactions go through cleanly and without challenges, is it worth expending excessive time chasing down and correcting the very occasional FUBAR? If you are truly running a business, how many additional knives could you make and sell in the time you spend beating your head against a phone when the person on the other end does not have a clue? Sometimes sh*# happens ... in other areas it is called the cost of doing business. Yes it is nice to get a clean resolution ... but is it always worth it? Again, i only offer this as food for thought...
 
I'm glad you got your $$ back Dave. It's stupid that you had to do the work to make it happen though. PP should be more capable of sorting the crap out properly.
I got reading the Heath Helton 47 page thread after your account. What a crap show. Something is wrong when someone can pull that much crap and get away with it.

Yeah I hadn't heard of that deal until that link was posted. WOW! Everybody here on BF should read that link.

I am going to take a slightly different approach to this - which might not be too popular - but i pose it as food for thought. We obviously want all things to be “perfect” .. to get your money when you send a knife out. But things can always go wrong: there are bad actors out there, and mis-communications happen (as in this case). If, as people seem to indicate, in the vast majority of cases transactions go through cleanly and without challenges, is it worth expending excessive time chasing down and correcting the very occasional FUBAR? If you are truly running a business, how many additional knives could you make and sell in the time you spend beating your head against a phone when the person on the other end does not have a clue? Sometimes sh*# happens ... in other areas it is called the cost of doing business. Yes it is nice to get a clean resolution ... but is it always worth it? Again, i only offer this as food for thought...

Ya know the wife and I started talking about that. She handles most of the business side of things. We were guessing she had maybe 2-3 hours into it. The only call I made was to the PD and I took the return call from the PD and the mom. So my total time out of the shop 30 minutes maybe. Consumables (belts, steel, handle materials, leather) are the cost of doing business. Fraud, not so much I think. Another way of looking at it. You go to work for a company, you do your job, you get a paycheck. Three months later you get an email that says accounting decided we shouldn't have given you that paycheck so we just took that money out of your account. Now you're pissed cause you know what you worked there you had that paycheck coming. You make a couple calls and give them proof that you worked there and they say Ah we'll put the money back in your account. So all is rosy. Another month later bam another email. Hey we are going to take that money back out of your account even though we know you did do your work and we're going to charge you more money for our time taking the money back out of your account. Remember that knife is our paycheck. If we'd allowed it to just slide it wouldn't have cost us just that one knife it would cost us two. Because I would have had to make and sell another knife to replace the money we'd already spent obviously four months later after receiving it. Your labor and materials on the second knife net you zero cause now you are just breaking even. So was it worth it? Yeah it was because that second knife I will get paid for and I got my money back on the first. I certainly understand your point of diminishing returns and you are right. We were almost there. Outside of the call to the PD what else was there to do? Lessons learned:

Twenty twenty hindsight and all to do over again, I think I would of just called the guy. Probably could of got it all sorted out over the phone. That was our original thought when we received the first email from Paypal. We cussed and discussed it some and decided just to fill out the rebuttal that PP had in their email. I was a little concern about muddying the waters and I didn't want to give the customer any further ammo that he could say now the merchant is harassing me or anything of that nature. So we decided with the rebuttal not the phone call. But as it turned out it probably would of been ok. If it indeed had been a fraud, knowing what I know now about how these things are not really investigated what would of it hurt?
 
Yeah I hadn't heard of that deal until that link was posted. WOW! Everybody here on BF should read that link.



Ya know the wife and I started talking about that. She handles most of the business side of things. We were guessing she had maybe 2-3 hours into it. The only call I made was to the PD and I took the return call from the PD and the mom. So my total time out of the shop 30 minutes maybe. Consumables (belts, steel, handle materials, leather) are the cost of doing business. Fraud, not so much I think. Another way of looking at it. You go to work for a company, you do your job, you get a paycheck. Three months later you get an email that says accounting decided we shouldn't have given you that paycheck so we just took that money out of your account. Now you're pissed cause you know what you worked there you had that paycheck coming. You make a couple calls and give them proof that you worked there and they say Ah we'll put the money back in your account. So all is rosy. Another month later bam another email. Hey we are going to take that money back out of your account even though we know you did do your work and we're going to charge you more money for our time taking the money back out of your account. Remember that knife is our paycheck. If we'd allowed it to just slide it wouldn't have cost us just that one knife it would cost us two. Because I would have had to make and sell another knife to replace the money we'd already spent obviously four months later after receiving it. Your labor and materials on the second knife net you zero cause now you are just breaking even. So was it worth it? Yeah it was because that second knife I will get paid for and I got my money back on the first. I certainly understand your point of diminishing returns and you are right. We were almost there. Outside of the call to the PD what else was there to do? Lessons learned:

Twenty twenty hindsight and all to do over again, I think I would of just called the guy. Probably could of got it all sorted out over the phone. That was our original thought when we received the first email from Paypal. We cussed and discussed it some and decided just to fill out the rebuttal that PP had in their email. I was a little concern about muddying the waters and I didn't want to give the customer any further ammo that he could say now the merchant is harassing me or anything of that nature. So we decided with the rebuttal not the phone call. But as it turned out it probably would of been ok. If it indeed had been a fraud, knowing what I know now about how these things are not really investigated what would of it hurt?
My Brother in law ran an aviation repair company for a long time. Every once in a while he would run into someone not paying or some form of fraud happening. He was always measuring at what point it was no longer worth pursuing the funds and when he should just write it off. For him it wasn't worth his time to go to small claims court. But if he could make an hour worth of calls he would do it.
I think that is what you guys are measuring and all will have their own line. It would piss me off enough that I would likely pursue the guy just out of revenge, even if it cost me some of my free time.
 
Your labor and materials on the second knife net you zero cause now you are just breaking even. So was it worth it? Yeah it was because that second knife I will get paid for and I got my money back on the first. I certainly understand your point of diminishing returns and you are right.
Agreed. I probably was not clear enough that what you do might depend on the magnitude of the monies involved versus the time invested in it. If you are talking a few dollars ... probably not worth it. A couple thousand? - probably worth a fair amount of time trying to make it right. A hundred or two hundred?? Grey area I think - need to judge against time and pain-and-suffering involved :-)
 
Sometimes it feels like moving money is the most annoying part of the job. I send money all over the earth for paying suppliers, and man can it be nerve wracking.

Funny story, when I first started selling wood about 7 years ago, i was 15, and didnt like taking checks because of the obvious risk involved. But I quickly found out that people can get VERY mad at you if you tell them that you dont take checks. They make a big huff about you not trusting them and so on. So I adapted, and would pretend that as a young guy, i had never heard of checks. That the entire process was foreign to me, that i couldnt even comprehend how it worked. I just kept that up for ~5 minutes and then people give up and magically have cash on them.
 
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