Busse INFI Live Cut Test?

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
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What are the parameters of the live cut test?

Are there any recordings of the test?


-Shawn
 
I thought there was a video and I'm pretty sure Busse has an open challenge to any company or maker who would like to go head to head with the same test again.
 
That could have been the old INFI recipe, and might have been run a couple of HRC points harder than current INFI. I wasn't around then so I'm only guessing.
 
Cutting a firm 1" manila rope using 2" edge section with push-slice stroke (like cutting carrot) would/could induce self edge sharpening. As for infi 2700+ cuts and 'shaving' edge afterward, well yes it can be sharp but 'shaving' is more in the hands.

I ran into this self-sharpening a few years (maybe 5 yrs) when test cutting palm frond & sisal rope with 52100 blade. iirc I gave up cutting because the edge didn't failed cutting phonebook paper.

Here is a video showing self-sharpening behavior: youtu.be/cosuzhq28-g?t=412

In my CWF thread - finely cut bamboo chopstick test, you can see final edge are sharp and lower apex terrain (after 10ft of cutting).

Now, if cutting 1" dia rope using sawing(back & forth a few time per cut through) technique, wear will mostly at and immediate at apex = rounded the apex = blunt/dull. THUS - Be mindful of cutting technique and material attributes(keyed: abrasive size+vol% and stiffness) involved.
 
bluntcut said:
Cutting a firm 1" manila rope using 2" edge section with push-slice stroke (like cutting carrot) would/could induce self edge sharpening. As for infi 2700+ cuts and 'shaving' edge afterward, well yes it can be sharp but 'shaving' is more in the hands.

I ran into this self-sharpening a few years (maybe 5 yrs) when test cutting palm frond & sisal rope with 52100 blade. iirc I gave up cutting because the edge didn't failed cutting phonebook paper.

Here is a video showing self-sharpening behavior: youtu.be/cosuzhq28-g?t=412

In my CWF thread - finely cut bamboo chopstick test, you can see final edge are sharp and lower apex terrain (after 10ft of cutting).

Now, if cutting 1" dia rope using sawing(back & forth a few time per cut through) technique, wear will mostly at and immediate at apex = rounded the apex = blunt/dull. THUS - Be mindful of cutting technique and material attributes(keyed: abrasive size+vol% and stiffness) involved.
Click to expand...
I thought it was a hanging rope and they just swung and cut it but I could be wrong.
 
It's been theorized that the steel is A8 Mod, which is wood chipper blade steel, and only comes in stock much thicker than is appropriate for knives, which would necessitate wire EDM cutting to reduce it to appropriate thickness. This would explain why INFI is costly and typically used in somewhat thick knives since it means less wire cuts per unit of steel, reducing the high cost a bit. Switching suppliers would explain a change in the formulation since, to my understanding, no two companies "mod" the A8 formula in exactly the same way. Again, though, this is all educated speculation on my part.
 
This all sounds like hyperbolic marketing propaganda to me. I have a few Busse knives in Infi, and they are all excellent knives. But they don't hold an edge all that well -- not when compared to the better high-edge-wear steels with thin geometries that we have today. They perform roughly similar to 3V, which is pretty good.

Rockstead cuts rope a zillion times with their steel, too, which is heat treated to a much higher and more brittle Rc than Busse knives; so Busse's claim that toughness makes for almost unlimited longer cutting doesn't make much sense, although I can see that toughness combined with hardness and high-wear recipes would help. Fredrik Haakonsen makes a similar argument for A8(mod) steel.

"Toughness is a property often overlooked in knife steels, often on behalf of corrosion and wear resistance. The thing is that a sharp edge with a decent edge angle (<35° total angle) needs toughness to avoid breakage of the edge/chipping, especially when working with hard materials like wood. Because of this, edge retention of this steel [A8(mod)] will be better than higher alloyed steels and even powder steels for many purposes."
http://xxxknives.blogspot.com/2011/01/a8-mod.html​

Notice he says toughness helps edge wear performance on hard materials like wood, not rope.

Ankerson, I believe, used push cuts on rope to test wear resistance -- up to 20 pounds, if I remember correctly. None of his tested blades could match the Busse claim.

Larrin did a long article that showed Infi is essentially A8(mod), but Busse has its own heat treat and may have other tweaks. So Infi is likely to be different than A8 to some degree. Who knows.

It is obvious that hyperbolic marketing supercharges knife sales.

It is also obvious that the publicly available knowledge base in the knife business is extremely fragmented, highly limited and often contradictory to a large degree.
 
IIRC, the knife used was a Busse Basic 9. Jerry said the old Basic series were made from modified INFI (something about it being easier to machine).

The test was push cuts, not free hanging rope. I have used and abused my Basic 9 and I don’t have a problem believing the test results. Cutting rope probably just burnishes and polishes the edge.
 
Also of note, I beleive the edge treatment was an asymmetrical edge. Near to flat on one side, convex edge on the opposite.

I've heard the A8 Mod many times, but don't know that it is.

If I remember correctly, the A8Mod and the tested INFI sample were not identical, and the testing was not designed to pick up trace elements below a set amount (less than 1% or .5%)??

I can say I've used Busse's higher hardness INFI, their earlier INFI, and current INFI at regular hardness and higher hardness.

I'm no expert. I've only owned about 13 of my own Busse and 1 Swamprat. I've used their A2 as well.

Easy to sharpen. I found it dulled from abrasive use like most steels. I ve used it in flat grind to v edge, convex, flat to convex. I found it did some unexpected things when hitting unexpected stones, a d concrete, or other metal.

I've done all three with other steels, and with INFI.

I accidentially chopped a small river stone in half that was stuck to the end of a piece of wood I was chopping. I was sure based on sound and feel I would look to see a chunk/half moon piece of edge. What I saw was a tiny bit of edge deformation. Very slight. But enough I was bummed about my beloved, high polish, hand applied laser sharp convex edge on a FBMLE. I steeled the damage on a hard chromed round screw driver for a few minutes, and I'll be damned if the edge did not go back to original shape/size and was shaving sharp.

Based on how easy it was to fix, I expected the affected portion of edge to blow out later while doing hard chopping in stubborn fat wood. Years of hard chopping, and never had an issue.

I've had to steel the edge in a few (lent a fat ash to a guy who was helping butcher an elk on a concrete picnic table. I kept hearing him wack the concrete table again and again with the edge (elk was sitting on a sheet of butcher paper). He was sawing and slicing through the paper and meat. Nice dings and dents and dull edge. No higher than the edge bevel, so nothing major. Steeled right back into a shaving sharp edge. No need for stones.


In my experience, though, it dulls when cutting cardboard and other edge dulling tasks just like a normal steel. The higher hardness held an edge longer, but it is still no super duper steel for abrasion cutting edge retention.

I have enjoyed every single Busse I've used, in a couple of steels their 52100 (they call SR101) is, I thing, even better. People don't like rust prone steels, but I have more of carbon and spring and tool steels than stainless, so for me, no biggie.


I'm no expert tester. I've used probably two or three dozen steels. Simple medium and High carbon, tool steels, A2, D2, 5160, L6, 52100, CPM3V. I have a few differenrially heated customs, and I've used a triple handful of stainless. 440c, 420hc, laminated VG1, Aus8a, Krupp 4116, AEBL, 12C27M, CPM 154, Ats34, and a few others I can't recall.

I don't own any Busse right now, as I have pivoted more toward a few customs, and some inexpensive users like HI khukries couple inexpensive choppers from custom makers.

INFI shines in larger blades, and in its stainless attributes. Low maintenance. Well built. Amazing warranties and lots of variety in designs.

They do excellent work with every steel they use.

I would like to see them move into some of the new "super steels" and see what they can do with them.

My understanding is that they have their proprietary steel (INFI) made for them, and that it is done in Large batches. I believe they wont move on to another steel until the stockpile of INFI is used up, or passed onto the other sister companies. Swamprat and Scrapyard (who are already dipping into INFI supplies).

They have put out (between the three names) A2, D2, 154cm, Sr77 (jackhammer bit steel), 52100 (Labled as Sr101) and a few others. All to good reviews of the steel.
 
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I don't have an issues believing, I'm am genuinely curious.

This test was over 20 years ago.

I see it come up from time to time and just wanted more information on the details before everything is lost to time.
 
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