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Busse versus ????

Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
2,303
I know must of us here have heard of busse combact and the knives thye make. Their reputation is unheard of for toughness. But are they the toughest? Are there any companies or custom makers that can make a knife that will out last one of busse's large chopping blades?

I've always wondered this question:confused:
 
I think right now Fehrman is a pretty good competitor to them. Busse knives are proly a little better because of Infi, but CPM-3V is nothing to sneeze at. Also there designs are similar. They also have a few other close competitors like Mad Dog and strider but I will not go into that for fear of another Civil War. That is my .02,

TBG
 
From Jerry's testing, time and again nobody has taken the challenge.
Basically many identical knives could be made, from several different steels, an Jerry is quite confident his INFI steel will outperform the rest.

Now sure there are custom makers that could build a more efficient chopper, and do, BUT These are specific task type tools.

For a general production knife Busse says " BRINGEM ON" Live and to seen by all.
 
Fehrman was already mentioned,I'd add Ranger Knives,alas,I don't own one but a bud swears by his.

Doug:)
 
One of the toughest, besides Busse, may be these:
http://www.survivalknives.com/
(Tom Johanning's survival knives made from A8)
HOWEVER, AFAIK, very few members own them, and I've never seen a comparative review or test, expect for Cliff Stamp, and I don't think he has that on his website.
 
I find it interesting that a large amount of the testing references on Bladeforums point to Cliff Stamp's testing. I know that Cliff and his testing methods are a hot topic around here with a fair share of people falling in the pro side as well as the con side. What strikes me is that it seems there are a lot pof people that base a lot of their decisions or weight them heavily on this single point of reference. One of the things I like about this forumn is the opportunity to see a large number of people's experiences with any given product. I don't have any real positive or negative opinion about Cliff's testing but in the overall scheme of things his test is but one data point of info about any given product.
 
As a check on edge durability it was also lightly chopped into a concrete block, just wrist pops which only went a fraction of a centimeter into the block, the edge fractured readily.
(from the review mentioned above)

For all those times a concrete block attacks you, or you need to chop through a garage wall, or you get the URGE to just chop the snot out of some concrete!?! :confused:

I respect someone elses attempt to test a product. I also understand the concept of wanting to know what your knife is capable of. However, I sometimes question the real world application.

So, the knife didn't perform like a sledgehammer? Buy a sledgehammer.
 
Pahtoocara said:
(from the review mentioned above)

For all those times a concrete block attacks you, or you need to chop through a garage wall, or you get the URGE to just chop the snot out of some concrete!?! :confused:

I respect someone elses attempt to test a product. I also understand the concept of wanting to know what your knife is capable of. However, I sometimes question the real world application.

So, the knife didn't perform like a sledgehammer? Buy a sledgehammer.

Dorthy better never leave Kansas:D . The real world application is Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan... and American city streets. Soldiers and police use folders to open MREs and remove flex-cuffs, and combat knives to open ammo crates, break packing bands, break hasps off of doors, doors out of door-jambs, lids off of cars.. I was listening to a cop (former Army Lt.) tell me today that he could get into a car for a vertical liftout (necessary for neck and back injury patients) by batoning a good knife around quicker than the pneumatic jaws of life. And he recently broke two K-Bars practicing this. So, obviously there are times and situations where the "old standard" just isn't good enough.

RedEdge77 said:
Their reputation is unheard of. :confused:
I actually heard of it once;) :D

Some knives that come close, if not equal, are Cold Steel CarbonV knives, Gingrich (Ranger Knives), Fehrman knives, Mad Dog (if you can afford them anymore), Strider knives, Mission knives, Chris Reeve... The list goes on, but keep in mind that there will usually be one or two aspects of performance where the Busse will be superior. And in many cases the other knife may be superior. Busse knives are generally not good stabbers, but have strong tip strength, for example. There are many cases where your needs will lead you to a knife that isn't a Busse. But for combat/demolition knives, look for a thicker edge geometry to stand up to the abuse of bashing bricks for firing ports, and an overall thickness of at least 3/16" for lateral strength on windows and crates. Make sure the steels aren't hardened over 58-60 at the spine. And if they're over 60 at the edge carry a diamond hone in case you get some chips that need repair.

One more thing, someone is sure to mention that there's a sledgehammer and crowbar in the entry kit. But after entry, the guy with the entry kit usually doesn't make it to the 4th floor with you. You're on your own, with whatever you brought, and Murphy will make that happen more often than not. On convoy in combat we carried high lift jacks, hooligan bars, all the good stuff. And combat knives.
 
For all those times a concrete block attacks you, or you need to chop through a garage wall, or you get the URGE to just chop the snot out of some concrete!?!

I respect someone elses attempt to test a product. I also understand the concept of wanting to know what your knife is capable of. However, I sometimes question the real world application.

So, the knife didn't perform like a sledgehammer? Buy a sledgehammer.

Occasionally one misses a chop and hits some nearby rock or concrete. Also, it is not uncommon for wood to have some rock inclusions, which may get hit during chopping. Also, one may occasionally have to use knives in unusual ways during extenuating circumstances.
 
If the US is ever attacked by concrete blocks, we will be in good hands if the members of this forum break out their 'Busse Safe Queens' and smash those evildoers. :)
 
The concrete block tests and the "if I'm ever attacked by a piece of concrete" crew around here are one of the givens just about any time a thread on Busse comes up, and I swear that someday I'm going to pound the point they are missing through their heads. When you test something for durability, especially something that is made to be durable, you have to use extreme tests in order to accelerate the wear/tear. When mattress companies test new spring setups, they have giant rollers that crush, compress, and generally abuse them to try and simulate--in a few hours--the cumulative damage of several years of normal use. And I'm sure there is some jackass who'll read this and say, "Well I'll be sure to buy one of those mattresses if I ever need to put a giant roller on a bed" but I'm hoping that the majority can fathom that the reason for doing things this way is so that five or six years don't have to go by before you know if it's a good mattress. Sure, they're all comfortable when they're new---the question is how are they after they've been slept on for awhile?

It's the same thing here. Yes, the concrete blocks can sort of simulate an accidental hit to a rock or the ground, but first and foremost this is a test designed to exceed normal use, to speed up wear and tear and see how the knives stand up. If I take two well made, heavy duty fixed blades and go out to clear green wood and light vegetation, cut up meat and vegetables, open packages, make fuzz sticks, etc. and hope to get a really good comparison in terms of durability, I'll probably have really solid numbers to present in three or four years. All of these things are a walk in the park for a well made knife that was built to do them, so trying to pull out the differences using these as the testing means is more than a tad inefficient. Chopping into concrete blocks, cutting up dozens of feet of rope or cardboard, saltwater spray tests...these are all the same thing. Putting the knives through MORE than they'll ever likely need to do, to see how they stand up. And what is true in extremes will generally be true outside of them. If knife A doesn't chip/crack/deform/fail as badly or quickly as knife B in extreme tests, then knife A will also stand up to normal use better than knife B.

Busse has never said, "If your knife can't reproduce these results, it's crap." Instead it's, "Our knives can do this, if you think yours can too, step up." I have other knives that will not perform nearly so well in a concrete block chop, that will outperform the Busses in other areas. So what? I have different applications where I'll use one versus the other.

And yes, the knife versus prybar routine. Oh goody. Yes, a prybar will pry much better than any knife, if you have serious prying to do. Well, if I'm out where I'm carrying a big knife, I generally don't have any serious prying I need to do, but not having to worry about the structural integrity of my knife if I want to put some pressure on it sure is nice. I was segmenting an elk a few years back (because I couldn't carry him whole) and had to do some forcing/twisting to split up the hip joints. I wasn't carrying a Busse, but my knife did have some beef to its blade, and I didn't have to worry about breaking it in half while I was working. Yes a specific prying tool would have possibly done this one thing more easily, but my chunky knife did all I needed it to do, and was also useful in other things where a two or three foot steel rod would have been useless. And that knife plus my little skinner together don't weigh 1/4 what a prybar would.

So please, if a type of knife doesn't fit your needs, then don't buy it. But this "I must validate my preferences by attempting to discredit everything else" bit gets rather tiresome.
 
I was listening to a cop (former Army Lt.) tell me today that he could get into a car for a vertical liftout (necessary for neck and back injury patients) by batoning a good knife around quicker than the pneumatic jaws of life.

Let me start out by saying that I respect everyones right to have an opinion. But, will cops buy a Busse so they can cut holes in a car roof to extract a car crash victim? Possible, not probable. Ask that same guy who told you this, how many times he has actually done this in real life. Answer will be ZERO.

I will admit, Busse knives are awesome. I like Busse Knives, I have nothing against Busse knives. To each his own.

"I must validate my preferences by attempting to discredit everything else"

Don't know if you were implying this, but.....
Questioning testing methods of a knife is not the same as the above philosophy. I respect peoples tests/results because I don't have the time, or desire to do something that extensive right now. I still think that many who claim to need these knives will ever "leave kansas" and actually use the knives. Flame away.
 
The reason that Busse is well respected for heavier use is that Busse will suggest, encourage and warrenty their knives under very demanding use. This combined with the live demonstrations and numerous users reports provides a significant measure of confidence, reinforced by the fact that all of this has been happening for quite some time.

Justin of Ranger Knives is developing a strong reputation for hard use knives. He is using steels which are well suited to such applications, 5160 and S7. He has illustrated the performance personally and discussed the results in detail and in public. He also encourages use of his knives and which sends guys like Thom to go looking for metal fences.

Pahtoocara said:
However, I sometimes question the real world application.

If you wanted to understand all you had to do was drop me an email and ask, that is why I list it in the reviews, or just read the background information provided on the website.

So, the knife didn't perform like a sledgehammer? Buy a sledgehammer.

3V was promoted as an extreme toughness steel, designed for use in applications where other steels fail by fracture. It was commonly compared to S7, a steel used in jackhammer bits and heavy hammer heads, kind of ironic there. This is not a steel promoted for light cutting tools.

If the ability of the steel to resist fracture is not an issue then why use 3V, there are much better steels if that isn't a relevant issue. The fact that it took damage on the concrete was not the issue, how it damaged was the problem as well as how the damage was reacted to by the maker.

-Cliff
 
It was commonly compared to S7, a steel used in jackhammer bits and heavy hammer heads, kind of ironic there.

Yes, I see the irony there.

I will say, no matter what some say about your tests, I think they are, at the least, interesting. I guess my real point is people shouldn't think that a knife is crap because it doesn't cost $400+ and can't chop through concrete.

Some knives are crap, some are great. Many different things can make a knife one or the other.

To answer the question given in this thread....Busse vs. ? I can't really say, not too many companies have a reputation like Busse. Cold Steel?...J/K
 
Once in a while we need a good topic to liven up the forum. It was kind of getting dull lately. Having a small civil war is OK, don't let it get out of control, just like inflation, we need some but not too much. :)
 
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