Buy the knife - own the picture too?

DaveH

DaveH

Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Messages
12,249
I'm wondering about this, lets say I buy a knife off the internet dealer.

Can I take a copy of the pic for my purposes?
Does it matter if the knife is unique?

Just wondering as I see people say - "Here's the pic of my knife from dealer where I got it." Kinds of stuff.
 
I think use of the picture falls under the Fair Use doctrine, but one does not own the picture because they bought the knife.

Chris
 
Well...
Generally, photos are owned by the photographer that took them, unless they sign away their ownership to the image (temporarily or permanently).

Of course, there is no way to police this in cyberspace unless you can show that someone is running a business stealing your images.
Finding that person and prosecuting them will be darn difficult in any event.

It is hard for me to believe any one individual on BF or KF does enough business (and makes any "profit" from it) to qualify as competition worthy of doing battle over use of images.

Heck, Bladeart, Knifeart, Arizona Custom Knives, etc. get so much free advertisting as it is, that they should be damn grateful to get mentioned in these threads.

I would be interested in hearing the photographers side of this story.
 
Generally, photos are owned by the photographer that took them, unless they sign away their ownership to the image (temporarily or permanently).
Click to expand...



Not "generally." Always. The photographer owns the picture unless he has agreed otherwise. Even if someone else bought the film.

Notice, please that while many photographers specifically assert their copyright often by adding a copyright notice to the picture, you don't have to specifically assert a copyright to still own one. So, just because a picture doesn't say "copyright" on it, doesn't mean that it isn't.

A knife maker may have a copyright on the design of his knife (as an artist, he does. Copyright applies not just to printed text and pictures, but to just about any creative product). But if I take a picture of it, then I hold the copyright for that specific picture of that knife. I can even make money by selling copies of my picture of the maker's knife even though the knife itself is copyrighted by the maker.

There is the issue of "fair use." Fair use says that you can, within certain limits (do a websearch for the details) copy something from a work for the purposes of discussing that work. A book reviewer, for example, may quote a paragraph or two from a book he's reviewing. Fair use says that if the picture is part of a broader work, an advertisement, for example, and you want to discuss that broader work, you can "quote" the photograph. So, if I want to discuss the latest Benchmade knife, I can quote a picture from BM's website (though you must acknowledge the source and note that it is a copyrighted work).

Fair use also allows you to copy a copyrighted work for your personal use. If you're doing some research on a subject, for example, and you go to the library and read some books, you can photocopy pages out of those copyrighted books for your own use. But you can't republish those pages (there are actually ways you can republish them. Again, do a websearch if you really want the gorry details.)

Let's take the case of a customer who buys a custom knife from a certain maker. Before delivering the knife, the maker takes some pictures of it. After paying, the customer obviously owns the knife. But, the maker still owns the pictures he took of it. The maker can, for example, include those pictures in a printed catalog or brochure or on his website or exhibit those pictures at shows, etc., even though he doesn't own the knife. On the other hand, the customer does NOT own those pictures. So, he can NOT take a copy of the picture off of the makers website and post it on his own website. He CAN, however, take a copy of the picture off the maker's site for his own personal use. For example, he can put that picture in his own private files or collection catalog, use it for insurance purposes, etc.

Could he post it here on bf.c? Msybe, if his purpose is to discuss the knife and if the picture does not constitute the majority of his post. So, to just post saying "Look at my new knife." Well, that's not really discussion, is it? The majority of your work, your post, is the picture. To qualify as fair use, you have to actually contribute something to the new work, the post. You could give some of your own thoughts or opinions or comments about the knife, for example.

Let's discuss one more little issue. Let's go back to the case of the maker who sold the knife. Even though he sold the knife, the maker still owns the copyright to the knife itself! So, the owner can't take the knife to another maker and say, "Make me another one just like this." The second maker would be violating the first maker's copyright and the customer would be engaging in a conspiracy to do so.

If the original maker wants to, he CAN make a second knife just like the first and sell it to someone else. He owns the copyright. When you buy a custom knife, you can ask the maker to agree voluntarily not to ever make any more. That's fine. But, the maker still owns the copyright even though he's agreed not to every reuse it.

Let's say that you own a custom knife that you like very much. For you, it's perfect. But, it's getting a bit old and worn out. The maker is retired. You know another maker who does very similar work that you also admire. Can you take him your perfect knife and say, "Make me another one just like this?" NO! Not without getting the permission of the original maker.

And what if the original maker is dead? Then you'll need the permission of his estate for something like 99 years (looking up the exact time period is left to the reader as an exercise.)
 
Architect said:

"Of course, there is no way to police this in cyberspace unless you can show that someone is running a business stealing your images.
Finding that person and prosecuting them will be darn difficult in any event. "

I have experienced someone running a business stealing my images. Even with proof, it was, indeed, darn difficult. It was hard to track the people involved down, and prosecuting them turns out to be complicated and possibly beyond my means.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gollnick said:

"I can even make money by selling copies of my picture of the maker's knife even though the knife itself is copyrighted by the maker."

and

"Let's take the case of a customer who buys a custom knife from a certain maker. Before delivering the knife, the maker takes some pictures of it. After paying, the customer obviously owns the knife. But, the maker still owns the pictures he took of it. The maker can, for example, include those pictures in a printed catalog or brochure or on his website or exhibit those pictures at shows, etc."

There's some grey area in the law, here, but, as a generalization, the knifemaker in the hypothetical case above would not actually be legally entitled to use his own pictures of his own creation for commercial purposes, even with copyright, until s/he obtained a signed property release or model release from the knife owner. (To the best of my knowledge--don't take this as legal advice.)
 
As long as the maker took his pictures before selling the knife, it's pretty clear. BUT, if he took them after he sells the knife, things get grey. The owner of a work of art does have some legal rights to control the use of it. This is one reason why most museums prohibit photography. But, there have been cases in which courts would seem to have extended some rights to an artist to continue controlling his work even after he sells it. And now we're getting into seriously grey waters.
 
Gollnick

Thanks for the info, I've always wondered about that same issue, as I see lot's of people post pictures from online catalogs, I've been guilty of the same offence myself once or twice, but I always credit the source of the picture, if it's not mine.
 
Gollnick,

Would a blueprint and a paper trail from the initiator of a design be sufficient to restrain (legally) the maker of the knife?

aka... If I design the knife, have a schematic/scale drawing/blueprint and written correspondence identifying the knife to be made as being of my design, could I(legally) keep the maker from reproducing it without me permission?
 
aka... If I design the knife, have a schematic/scale drawing/blueprint and written correspondence identifying the knife to be made as being of my design, could I(legally) keep the maker from reproducing it without me permission?
Click to expand...

Better than that, my friend. The maker can not legally reproduce the knife without your permission in the first place.

If it comes to a court fight, you'll have to show that you were the original author of the design and that the other party did not develop his design independently. If you have a drawing, sketch, whatever, that is dated that's a good bit of evidence. If you showed it to someone else and that person can say, "Yes, on such-and-such a date, Mr. Poff showed me that drawing," that's another good piece. In fact, at the time you show the other person your drawing (even if it's just a cocktail napkin), it's a good idea to ask them to write "Read and Understood" and then sign and date it in their own handwritting. Then, we know the date on which you originally did the design for sure. Keep all of those old drawings; don't throw them away.

Now, you've established that you were the author of the design and about or exactly when you first expressed it. Couple that with some written correspondence between you and the other maker in which the other maker acknowledges your authorship, and you've got an air-tight case.

If you designed the knife, you can authorize the maker to make just one copy of it for you. Any prototypes or other models that he makes and any drawings or notes that makes along the way are his (you may require as part of your contract with the maker that any such materials be either turned over to you or destroyed when the project is complete) but he can't use them to make more copies nor can he distribute them (sell them or even give them away). If the maker wants to make another copy for any reason, he needs your prior permission.

Let's consider an example. You design a knife, The Poff Special. It's your dream knife. But, you can't make it yourself. So, you contact a maker and he agrees to make it for you. When he's done, you still own the design. You can take it to another maker and have a second one made. If I see it and say, "I want one like that" and go to the first maker and ask him to make one for me, he needs your permission and you can ask for a fee. If Benchmade sees it and says, "We want to make a product out of that." Then they have to license it from you.

But, in many cases, a customer comes to a maker with a very incomplete design, just a sketch. There's a lot of work left to turn the sketch into a viable knife design. So, the maker does all of that work and fills in all of those details. Now we start getting into a legal grey area. You and the maker start to co-own the design. Who owns what fraction of it is the question. It's best to negotiate these details up-front before the maker puts any work into it.
 
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