By Eye & Feel and/or By Gauge & Meter

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Feb 28, 2006
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Hello Friends,

It is always interesting to me to try and sort out the discussions about “how to make knives.” There are often two basic paradigms behind the various methods presented. It seems the dominant “stream” of thought leans toward the technological and measurable, complete with well ordered recipes and equations. Sometimes it seems this “scientific” approach is at odds with seemingly more primitive methodologies.

It is fairly easy to understand and agree with the techno-paradigm. After all, known steels with known alloy constituents and known heat treat temperatures and cycles, along with computer controlled ovens and engineered quenchents make for pretty predictable results. What’s to argue with? Not a thing!

On-the-other-hand, what about the “primitive” paradigm? It might involve magnets and color charts, files and brass rods, vegetable and mineral oils, vermiculite and dry ice. Naturally this approach is not typically recommended for the beginner. In fact it seems to be repeatedly, if not frowned upon or even denigrated, questioned or challenged. This certainly seems understandable; as it does not seem likely makers will inherently have the skill-sets to succeed in such a manner. Indeed, it is often implied that it is not possible to even develop such skills to succeed with the unaided eye, hand and mind.

Thankfully there are, of course, the exceptions to the “rule.” There are knifemakers that are extraordinarily successful in the marketplace and acknowledged as masters of the forged blade; that do not use computers and digital assistance. Of course these guys are likely to have decades of experience under their belts, if not even generations of blacksmithing or artisanship of one sort or another in their heritage.

I’m reminded of mechanics, who can at a glance know exactly what size socket or box wrench is needed to undo a series of nuts or bolt (without having to take out a set of calipers to measure said nuts.) These same mechanics over time are likely to not even have to take that quick glance to know which wrench is needed. They will have learned such and such a make and model’s heads (etc) need such and such a wrench. Is this modest example enough to extrapolate the believe that it might truly be possible to develop one’s mind, body and eye to know steel, fire, air and water (and oil) in a similar manner; enough to succeed as a Bladesmith unaided by calculators and equations?

I like to believe it is, certainly not with the first knife, nor would it be likely with the hundredth. Perhaps it would even take a thousand or more, but eventually the experience, wisdom and finely honed observational skills of the human body, senses and mind would develop.

I’m reminded of my journey as a jeweler, silversmith and goldsmith. After fabricating literally thousands of pieces of jewelry I could read the colors (under various conditions and lighting) of the silver or gold being soldered by torch. I could touch the solder as the piece heated up and the flux transformed at just the right moment. A second earlier and the piece(s) would not be hot enough and the solder wouldn’t flow properly. A second later would be too late and a portion of the piece would melt, not just the solder.

I suspect many of us have in our backgrounds similar experiences of developing marvelous capacities and skill-sets of the most amazing instrument of all; that of the human being! Comments welcome.

All the best, Phil

PS - I am not anti technology. I am also learning to use a new Evenheat oven (with controller) and bonafide quenchents. On-the-other-hand, I am pro humanity, in all it splendor, even that of a by-the-seat-of-ones-pants artisan!
 
As a fellow artist (Photographer, jeweler, musician, bladesmith) with a day job as a metallurgical associate engineer in an aerospace superalloy manufacturer, the greatest art is achievable when the things that affect material performance are precisely controlled, and aesthetic considerations are done by hand. Case in point, color photography. You can be a truly gifted photographic artist, but if the slide film developing process is off by three degrees fahrenheit, the developer is slightly dilute or too concentrated, or the bleach not oxygenated well enough, the images will look like crap. Knifemaking is the same way, There are folks who can forge steel into absolutely stunning organic shapes, if those blades never have to cut anything, the heat treat is not all that important. If those blades actually have to cut daily, the heat treat being right suddenly becomes critical

-Page
 
I came into this from the perspective of an artist (photographer) and a love for old things.. especially tools and weapons. I like the idea of a primitive approach but I also want to make sure my customers are getting the best possible product. I forge to shape and heat treat by eye and magnet. I don't use ovens. But I'm also continually trying to learn the intricacies of metallurgy (I like to compare this to the old alchemist!)... especially in terms of what I can do to get the most out of my steel with the tools I have. I've switched to commercial oils for example. From a heat treat perspective, I feel like I'm doing a satisfactory job because I stick to 1084 and other 10XX steels. If I delve into mystery or recycled steels, I communicate this with the customer. I also feel like I'm doing a satisfactory job because (especially recently after a humbling attempt at a cutting contest) I'm a continuous student of improving performance through the study of edge geometry, handle ergonomics and... especially... testing. I love my old Kolswa anvil because it has marks all over the lower section from smith testing the hardness of his tools that he was making. And I've seen it written here many times.... what is a good heat treat without the appropriate edge geometry?

I don't see myself ever needing ovens because I don't have an interest in steels that require that kind of precise control. I'm really into laminated steels right now... I will probably always keep my Aldo 1084 in the core and put fun things outside.
 
Properly calibrated and correctly used technologies will always result in a more precise heat treatment than someone who reads the temperature using methods like color of the steel. The best someone reading by eye could hope to achieve is below what someone using more sophisticated means can hope for. Sure, using something like color speeds up the process of heat treatment (don't have to set up the proper equipment), but don't think it doesn't come at a price.

Unfortunately, this is a little unlike the mechanic analogy. In the mechanic analogy if you make a mistake, it's obvious and you just go back to your toolbox and all problems are solved. With heat treatment you may not see that something is messed up until your blade has been used for years.
 
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These threads always seem to come in waves... lol. Not that I don't appreciate and participate in them. After I post, it's fun to search back on all the past ones to see if my stance has "evolved" or "regressed".


I completely agree that modern technology has put to rest, the "magic" behind steel and it's heat treatment. There is simply nothing more precise and contsistant than calibrated equipment and specifically engineered materials. I absolutely love that fact.

Still, there is something about the guy who smelts his own steel in a dirty stack of clay bricks and works it from begining to end by hand, eye, ear and intuition. It is something I have stopped trying to rationalize and just go with, now.

"The romance of bladesmithing can still be present, as long as it in anchored in metallurgical fact." Sometimes, I say/type some pretty silly stuff and usually regret doing so. That particular statement has a lot of meaning to me.

In a nutshell....

I think fooling yourself into believing you can compete with science (regarding heat treat) is a bad move but making an honest compromise while remaining truthful to your customer is a reasonable path, IMO.

Rick
 
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funny... i'm learning to smelt right now. will be on a road trip for ore this weekend and visiting Ric Furrer in jan.

but don't you think that somebody working with something like 1084 can do a pretty dang good job compared to somebody using the same steel and a calibrated oven? At least in terms of performance? Given that the smith has taken the time to calibrate his eye for his work conditions? But then I suppose, in this case, an argument could be made for the even heating supplied by the oven. But then you lose the fun of attempting to concentrate heat treat to the edge for differential heating, etc.

i'm not trying to argue... this something i honestly want to know. i understand for the steels requiring more complex heat treat condition, but good old 1084?

I'm sure the veterans here are rolling there eyes at an old argument, but....
 
Calibrated equipment and precise working parameters (right word?) would be far more consistant. So I think the answer would be "possibly?" yes, "surely?" nope.

Could a pro baseball pitcher throw as accurately and consistantly as a calibrated pitching machine?... but at the same time I don't think the machine has the same chance to strike out a batter.
 
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I dont think theres any use in going "art vs science" cause thats exactly the way some folks see it.
Ive heard everything from:
"You cant heat treat without an oven, you'll only get rc 57 instead of rc 59"
to:
" Thats not a hand made knife, you used a grinder" or "Thats not hand forged, you used a drill press instead of drifting it"
.
Its an endless battle, from two sides that will always believe they are right :D
 
Just a side note on Phil's basic question, ignoring the HT bit:

The ABS five knife exams explicitly don't allow the examiners to use
measuring instruments. "If it looks wrong, it is wrong. And visa-versa."
 
that's what I say when I'm heat treating too. 'Man... something just doesn't look right about that shade of orange'.
 
I don't think that "primitive" is really the right word for it. I also don't think that one approach is necessarily more scientific than the other...

Just the same way as there is good craftsmanship and bad craftsmanship, there is also good science and bad science. When we see good hand craftsmanship we know it, but how do we know good science from bad science or true science from false science? This actually gets much trickier. One has to be aware of the false trappings of science in order to be a good scientist, and just because one approach appears to have all the trappings of science doesn’t necessarily make it more scientific. One way to determine either is true, is if it can withstand the test of time. Trends in science and art come and go…

One problem we face in living in the “Age of science” is far too often science goes un-disputed. However,… withstanding criticism, skepticism and peer review is an integral part of the “scientific method”. Too many times folks who question the logic, ethics etc., behind the science at hand or as it pertains to any field of study, (including knifemaking), are victims of reverse burden of proof and ad hominem abuse.

Identifying pseudoscience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Identifying_pseudoscience

Art and science have many things in common but are not the same, and don't have the same goals. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Traditionally and historically speaking however, bladesmithing and "handmade" (or hand/eye) knifemaking, (no matter how much science and/or technology is involved), fall more under the field of “arts and crafts”, because there are so many non-scientific considerations involved… knock on wood. :)

I seriously doubt that there is any purely scientific approach to handmade knifemaking... ;)
 
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I think that their are a number of factors going on here, some of which have already been disused, but others have not really been hit upon. First off We need to know what end result we are looking for, and this will change from person to person. Most people probably want the best possible product, which will come from a scientific approach. However some people make knives not to sell, but just to use themselves, and enjoy, and this approach does not necessarily require as much equipment, it is a personal thing, which is the reason it sometimes ruffles some feathers.
this is also true of the customers some people want a perfect scientific approach, and some want a rustic handmade knife, and their are excellent craftsman in both camps, many of which will do both
just my $.02
 
"However,… withstanding criticism, skepticism and peer review is an integral part of the “scientific method”.'

in other words, get your heat treat specs from the Proceedings of the Royal Society rather than Fox News. ;)
 
I'd say, get your specs from the boys in the manufacturers’ metallurgy department, and good luck! :) LOL
 
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i just thought the Royal Society offered a better opportunity for polarized exaggeration. :-)
 
I guess one of the things I’m trying to say is,… if you follow this “scientific approach” out far enough, at some point it becomes something other than handmade... machined.

... not that that's good or bad though... but it does seem to diminish from the personal, individual, cultural and... "human" aspects of the art/craft. It's a different animal.

Custom machining or whatever you want to call it, and more traditional handmade knifemaking will both have their places and audiences in the present and down the road...

... and all points in between.
 
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I agree with that in a huge way Tai as do many of the folks I deal with. The people that buy my knives want to the see the mark of the maker and have no interest in blades that look like something they could buy at a store. But having said that, I have great respect for the blade smiths that are able to do such immaculate work from the forge to the hammer to finished piece. It's just not my own personal style.
 
It's really a hard topic to discuss without interjecting personal biases.

I have no problem distinguishing between the hammers I have machined by Nathan and the bladesmithing I do at home by myself. There's reasoning and logic for both, and all points in between.

Machines can do some things that humans can't,… and humans can do some things that machines can't. Humans can do some things better than machines and vise versus.

In order to get the most out of just about anything, (including science and/or the human body), you have to be aware of it’s shortcomings and limitations…

As soon as they come out with a good robot I can afford, I’ll probably get one for an apprentice. :)
 
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We need to embrace or at least recognize the differences. I use a little of both worlds. I love to forge. Use a hand hammer to forge my blades to shape but I am not afraid to use the power hammer for larger billets and reducing stock to a more manageable size. My arms just will not hold up to long heavy hammering anymore. I also use some of my machinist knowledge to make a few things easier. Slotting guards for one. Most all other parts of making I do by hand. Normally the only time I put a precision measuring tool on the blade is to check for guard slot size.

When I first started forging I used a coal forge. I learned to make damascus in the coal forge and spent many hours learning the skill. I got to the point I could hear when the billet was ready to come out. It is very difficult to see into a pile of hot coal so listening to the subtle change prevented loss of heat etc. I have lost this ability since I no longer use coal. Much of what we do is right on the border of science and art. Learning to tell what we need to concentrate on makes it a lot easier (for me) to keep our head in the game.
 
I do both (manual fabrication and "production design") and have focused on both for years, starting first with the more manual-arts methods.

I've spent more recent years focusing on novel designs maximized for "production." This involves CAD and real familiarity with modern methods.

So in my shop, I'll go from swinging a hammer on one project to measuring with an optical flat on another ... designing on the fly in front of the forge in the morning to painstakingly chasing down +/-ten-thousandths modeling at the computer all night.

I look at these disciplines as completely different, but EQUALLY challenging. It's one thing to design something that's cool and wonderful---making ONE by hand. But when you design for production you have to take into account every probable manufacturing technique involved and where there will likely be problems getting the desired results. It can become very complex planning for a bunch of parts, whereas doing a one-of would be no big deal. In other ways, the more manual approach is uniquely challenging.

Between the two, there seems to be a lot more snobbery on the manual-arts side, who tend to be dismissive of work utilizing CNC equipment--as if using that set of tools is somehow cheating or inherently easy. This is ignorance.
There are no computerized short cuts to knife-making proficiency and craftsmanship isn't a stranger to the machinist.
 
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