Byrd Knives - Rope Tests

J

JDBLADE

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Dec 8, 2003
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I have posted the following on the Spyderco Forum. Just a point of clarification I am led to understand 440c and 8Cr13MoV as used in these knives might in fact be the same steel (although initial tests don't show this) or it could be that the 440c as used by the Chinese manufacturer was not really 440c and the switch was made to 8Cr13MoV - I think this needs to be clarified.

These tests are not a Review as such but came as a result of a thread on the Spyderco Forum - I am at the moment carrying a Byrd Meadowlark as part of a review I am preparing. I post here for your interest.

"I’ve just finished conducting the following tests on the Byrd Knives. Firstly, let me say that I don’t think they are in anyway definitive as they were not as controlled as I would like. I basically did one after the other (I normally rest my hands etc between tests but I got carried away with enthusiasm) and I used one of those Craft Cutting Mats for a backing (I find these Mats harder on knives than hardwood). Secondly, the rope I used was new (just bought it) 3/8” Manila and the rods I used in the Sharpmaker were “fresh” (I.E. they had been cleaned previously – I always have a fresh set of coarse rods on hand) coarse brown/grey rods at 30 degrees.

Control Test – Delica PE VG10 – I made 40 cuts – the Delica was still cutting but I decided that was a good place to stop. The Delica is my EDC although I haven’t carried for a couple of days and I gave it 5 strokes per side to touch it up.

Byrd Meadowlark 440C – I have been carrying this for a few days the edge had not been sharpened it had been used on leather and hardwood dowel. It made 1 cut then starting slipping. After 20 strokes per side on the rods it made 25 cuts before slipping.

Byrd Flight 8Cr13MoV – I did not have any plans on doing a review on the 8Cr13Mo (lets agree to call this “8etc”) so I grabbed a new one out of the box. It started slipping on its first cut (I didn’t think to check if it had a burr). After 20 strokes per side on the rods it made 19 cuts before slipping.

Now I don’t know what conclusions you can draw out of this “little” test but I think you must agree that it is a pretty good result for the Byrd Knives. My Delica has been with me for sometime so of course its edge was at its optimum. The Byrd Knives had only seen 20 strokes per side on the Sharpmaker (maybe this also a good endorsement of the Sharpmaker) there was no attempt to reprofile the edges at all but it did prove that the edges were at 30 degrees as Sal had said previously. The Meadowlark held up well compared to tests I had done recently with Kabar Doziers made out of AUS8 at 56-58HRC (anyone who has used those knives would know they are good slices and their blade profile is a bit thinner than the Byrds).

I would have to do some more tests with the Flight to see how the 8etc is and probably try some of the other designs such as the Pelican. But, for me at the price I would have no trouble recommending them to my customers. Sal, I think you are on a winner here if you can get prospective buyers to ignore the “China Made” tag. I know these tests are nowhere near what you would have done but it should tell the other forumites something coming from a layperson."
 
Sal posted the following on the Spyderco Forums:

"We communicated with the foundry. Their analysis matched ours. I said we cannot call this 440C in the USA if it is not the same chemistry as 440C in the USA. The name of the steel in China is 8Cr13MoV. .8 Carbon, 13 Chrome, less than 1. moly with vanadium.

It is a good steel and tests in a range with Aichi's AUS-8.

byrd models are made from and will be marked 8Cr13MoV."

I don't think I was influenced by not knowing the above in the cutting tests at least my hand wasn't. The difference between the 2 knives could have been anything given one had its edge broken in and the other was straight out of the box. I'll be doing some more testing on the Flight if I can convince the "Boss" to let me keep the knife for awhile anyway she's gone camping for 4 days.
 
What is the hardness on the 440C and VG-10? Has Sal commented on any edge retention tests they have done on 440C when they use it? Do you have another knife in 440C you could compare the Byrd to?

You may want to grind one of the Byrd knives down to a similar geometry as if it is thicker it will slip earlier at the same level of blunting. So the Delica could have gone significantly further before you would judge it was cutting with a similar level of reduced performance as the Byrd's?

-Cliff
 
The "440C" (Chinese steel that's really 8Cr13MoV) that you speak of wouldn't happen to be the same "440C" that Buck, Benchmade, and CRKT are using on their China/Taiwan made knives, would it? I assume it's the same "440C" that Smith&Wesson (Taylor Cutlery) uses too, right?
 
Hi Cliff.

Do you have any byrds?

We could flip a few your way ;)

Hi 3Guardsmen, I can't speak for any other companies. My commitment is to our customers.

sal
 
Cliff Stamp said:
What is the hardness on the 440C and VG-10? Has Sal commented on any edge retention tests they have done on 440C when they use it? Do you have another knife in 440C you could compare the Byrd to?

You may want to grind one of the Byrd knives down to a similar geometry as if it is thicker it will slip earlier at the same level of blunting. So the Delica could have gone significantly further before you would judge it was cutting with a similar level of reduced performance as the Byrd's?

-Cliff
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Given Sal's comments on the "440C" I think we can dispense with calling it that as we now know that it is really 8Cr13MoV. Sal's only comments re the steel that I have seen is that it tested out at 61HRC (Sal correct me if I am wrong but that is the way I read your comments) and that they are doing more tests. Regard the VG-10 in the Delica, when I bought mine it was listed on the old Spyderco Website as 60-61HRC but as you know Spyderco don't list the hardness anymore.

At the moment I am comparing the 8Cr13MoV with AUS-8 - I have a couple of Kabar Doziers in that steel and I think I will compare one with the Byrd Meadowlark although I am looking through the stock at the moment to see if I have a blade in AUS8 which is closer to the geometry of the Meadowlark.

As regards the Delica I estimate that it would have taken about 10 more cuts before it started to slip like the Meadowlark. I don't know how much influence it had on the test but the Delica was the first tested and then I went straight on to the others.
 
JDBLADE said:
...the Delica was the first tested and then I went straight on to the others.
Click to expand...
With low volume testing, you generally get better as you get into the mechanics, this only made a difference for me if I had not done it for months and then did two knives. The second was biased because of the experienced gained from the first.

Because of this I usually keep a stock knife I use for all such work and use that to get the groove back for rope cutting, chopping etc., before I actually use the comparative knives, and even then I do multiple trials, reverse orders, etc. .

To be clear, I don't actually expect anyone else to actually do that, I just do a lot of numerical research and it became a habit, plus it is something I actually enjoy anyway. You don't need to do it really to get useful information, if you can't do a simple trial and see a difference then the difference obviously isn't significant.

Sal thanks for the offer, I had been thinking about the Byrd line as a way to introduce people to higher quality knives. I'd enjoy looking at them, plus get a few passarounds going and see if I can't get some viewpoint upgrades.

-Cliff
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi 3Guardsmen, I can't speak for any other companies. My commitment is to our customers.

sal
Click to expand...

Hi, Mr. Glesser, and Thanks for the feedback! At least I can always count on Spyderco to do the right thing (finding out that a steel isn't really the steel it's advertised by the vender to be, and changing the name of it so the ELU's are given the straight scoop). Thanks for continuing to test and being willing to push the envelope, Mr. Glesser! :cool:
 
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