C of A question

Definitely yes, as the first owner's name can serve as witness to the maker's original statements regarding the knife. This could add credibility to the document as the knife passes on to secondary owner/owners. Jerry Fisk's C of A have a place for secondary owners to re-register if they care to. In this case Jerry has a continuing record/history of the knife.
 
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I thought of possibly printing a column on the back side as sort of a "list" with the first owner in the #1____Kevin Jones_____ location.
#2.________________
#3.________________
etc.
 
Privacy is your buyer's right, let them make the decision. It should not include the first or any person's name unless the customer(s) requested it.

Per "the first owner's name can serve as witness to the maker's original statements regarding the knife" How so? A name is not a witness and it would need an address (how many John Smith's are out there?) There are probably more BS stories told by owners about the provenance of a knife than by dealers :)
 
Russ Andrews said:
Customer's option...?
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Exactly right.

Some guy may not want a certificate with some other guy's name plastered on it. The initial buyer may not want his name on it due to privacy concerns. Your first concern should be for the guy buying the knife from you. Let him decide. (Or her,as the case may be).

I think the whole C of A thing is a bit overrated on the "A" aspect anyway. But it does provide a handy reference for materials used and date made, which is information worth preserving.

Roger
 
No, generally at least. The benefits for the owner are veryf limited, the potential for trouble is real. If I have a CA with my name on it, it's staying with me.
 
I have just started printing Certificates to go with my knives and from the buyer's I've asked I will not be including buyer information on my regular certificate.

Of course, I can always add it later but the consensus seemed to be "no" to any information on the certificate that did not specifically describe the knife itself.
 
I have included them with my knives for well over two years now.
I guess as much as anything else, when I print them up, I also file a copy in the customer's file folder, and one on my computer as well, with the name of the buyer.
As long as I am alive, the information will be available.
I'll leave them as-is.
 
brownshoe said:
Privacy is your buyer's right, let them make the decision. It should not include the first or any person's name unless the customer(s) requested it.

Per "the first owner's name can serve as witness to the maker's original statements regarding the knife" How so? A name is not a witness and it would need an address (how many John Smith's are out there?) There are probably more BS stories told by owners about the provenance of a knife than by dealers :)
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An original owner's name documents that the maker and the original owner agree as to materials used and/or any numbers of items/conditions regarding the knife.

For example, if a maker uses mammoth ivory and states such on the CA then a secondary owner knows at least that the original owner agreed that it was in fact mammoth ivory on the knife or the original would have made the maker change the CA.

I don't see how owner privacy enters into this as the original owner receives the CA from the maker, so unless he tells folks he's the owner or shows/gives someone the CA than he remains anonymous. He does not have to disclose/transfer the CA if/when he sells the knife.

We have this same discussion regarding what should/should not be included on a Certificates of Authenticity every several months. My point is that unless a maker is going to provide features and/or information on the CA that's going to do someone some good then don't bother.

A CA with the right information can help guard against counterfeiting and folks selling knives as something they are not. Fortunately, we don't have a real problem with counterfeiting of custom knives YET, but we will as prices start to climb.

Documentation and owner history mean everything in collector cars these days. Many desirable classic cars are being manufactured from salvaged cars/parts and sold as originals. ID#s and casting #s are being changed resulting in collectors being cheated out of thousands of dollars. The difference in value between having the original engine block and a replacement block in a classic Corvette can be $50K.

We will get to the point when buying an expensive knife on the secondary market will require documentation to insure authenticity, just as it has with collector cars over the last 15 years.
 
Kevin Jones said:
An original owner's name documents that the maker and the original owner agree as to materials used and/or any numbers of items/conditions regarding the knife.

For example, if a maker uses mammoth ivory and states such on the CA then a secondary owner knows at least that the original owner agreed that it was in fact mammoth ivory on the knife or the original would have made the maker change the CA.
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I don't understand that at all.
I don't need an original owner/customer to "agree" with what I put on the C of A for it to be legitimate!
If he doesn't agree with it, then he's loopy!
Or, I misunderstand your comments.
 
I personally appreciate a C of A that lists things such as Materials, Prod Date (or Birth Date if you are one of THOSE Makers), etc. Esp if it is printed on a nice stock and Hand Signed. :thumbup:

Karl - I agree with your decision not to alter your current one. If a secondary owner wants further provenance he/she may ask the original owner for it. The s.o. may request the o.o. state things such as;
1) the original intent of commission (ie Gift, Special Occasion)
2) the current condition
3) its geographic travels
4) sale price
- or anything that he/she feels is important to document about the knife. But leave it to the o.o, s.o., t.o....ooooo You get my poooint.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
I don't understand that at all.
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You are not alone.

I certificate cannot provide any additional "authentication" as to the materials used beyond what the knife itself shows and what the maker's records disclose.

And given that it is VASTLY more simple to forge a certificate than a knife, that piece of paper provides no meaningful additional assurance against counterfeiting. Arguably - it might assist in passing off a counterfeit knife for this very reason.

I don't think they're a bad thing - it's nice for the original owner to have. I have received a couple with my name inscribed and don't mind that at all. But like Joss - such a certificate would stay with me even if the knife went elsewhere.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
You are not alone.

I certificate cannot provide any additional "authentication" as to the materials used beyond what the knife itself shows and what the maker's records disclose.

And given that it is VASTLY more simple to forge a certificate than a knife, that piece of paper provides no meaningful additional assurance against counterfeiting. Arguably - it might assist in passing off a counterfeit knife for this very reason.

I don't think they're a bad thing - it's nice for the original owner to have. I have received a couple with my name inscribed and don't mind that at all. But like Joss - such a certificate would stay with me even if the knife went elsewhere.

Roger
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I'm good with that.
Thanks, Roger.
 
RogerP said:
You are not alone.

I certificate cannot provide any additional "authentication" as to the materials used beyond what the knife itself shows and what the maker's records disclose.

And given that it is VASTLY more simple to forge a certificate than a knife, that piece of paper provides no meaningful additional assurance against counterfeiting. Arguably - it might assist in passing off a counterfeit knife for this very reason.

I don't think they're a bad thing - it's nice for the original owner to have. I have received a couple with my name inscribed and don't mind that at all. But like Joss - such a certificate would stay with me even if the knife went elsewhere.

Roger
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Agreed.

Good post.
 
I am the customer, the buyer. I have no problem with a C of A that describes the knife. But I have a HUGE problem with one that, in any way, describes ME. My personal information is personal to me and until the law starts requiring registration of knives, I never want my name on a certificate. I want the certificate left blank. That is my option as a buyer - or I won't be a buyer.
 
Hillbillenigma said:
I personally appreciate a C of A that lists things such as Materials, Prod Date (or Birth Date if you are one of THOSE Makers), etc. Esp if it is printed on a nice stock and Hand Signed. :thumbup:

Karl - I agree with your decision not to alter your current one. If a secondary owner wants further provenance he/she may ask the original owner for it. The s.o. may request the o.o. state things such as;
1) the original intent of commission (ie Gift, Special Occasion)
2) the current condition
3) its geographic travels
4) sale price - or anything that he/she feels is important to document about the knife. But leave it to the o.o, s.o., t.o....ooooo You get my poooint.
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How do secondary owners know who the original owner is to ask the questions you suggest if the knife wasn't purchased from the original owner and the name not on the CA.

Again, how does the original owner's name being on the CA compromise his privacy since he holds it in his possession?
 
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My feeling is that if a knife comes with a certificate of origin/authenticity, it should stay with the knife.

That said...it is the original purchaser's option as to how the certificate is filled out.

MOST custom knives that come from me have a certificate that I fill out, indicating date made, materials and if I messed with the knife(Garssonized) or not. It would seem that provenance is becoming more important to collectors each year, and that is what Kevin is basically alluding to....as Loveless and Moran knives become counterfeited with time by unscrupulous makers and sellers, and the money becomes more serious, it will become paramount that the entire journey these knives have made be apparent....but it always comes back to trust.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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