ca fixed blade law

[generallobster]

My question is, based on your understanding of the penal code cited below, does the caspian 2 (blunt tip) spyderco technically not fit the definition of dirk or dagger and thus is concealable?



jim march's summery of the now famous penal code:
Parts of Penal Code 12020 cover street carry of knives. It also flat bans some types.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses...any ballistic knife...any nunchaku...any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken [ed: "throwing star"]...any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag. [Ed. Note: this is the paragraph covering "what you cannot own at all" - some of it is downright weird. Plastic/ceramic knives that can go through a metal detector are also banned somewhere in PC12020.]
...
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
...
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position. [Ed. note: so if it's a PC653k-legal knife, and it's carried concealed while folded, it's not "readily available" and therefore doesn't meet the "dirk or dagger definition". ONLY "dirks or daggers" need to be open-carry.]
...
25(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

 

[dsvirsky]

"Technically" you are correct. On a practical level, you may find yourself paying an attorney a great deal of money in an attempt to prove you were correct. And you may not win.

 

[generallobster]

To me it seems like you take the same risk carrying any of those oversized folders or any scary looking folder like the civilian--it doesn't fit the criteria of dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code, but for practical purposes, an leo could still give you trouble without understanding the law in detail, charge you with an offense, and place the burden of having to clear things up in the courts on you. The whole blade longer than the length of your palm or gravity knife by some ill conceived definition would seem to put anyone carrying folders at the same risk.

 

[TOM1960]

To me it seems like you take the same risk carrying any of those oversized folders or any scary looking folder like the civilian--it doesn't fit the criteria of dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code, but for practical purposes, an leo could still give you trouble without understanding the law in detail, charge you with an offense, and place the burden of having to clear things up in the courts on you. The whole blade longer than the length of your palm or gravity knife by some ill conceived definition would seem to put anyone carrying folders at the same risk.

Which is why I cannot overstate the importance of good concealment. Advertising the fact that you are carrying serves no purpose whatsoever except to scare the sheeple and attract the attention of LEOs. If in doubt, check yourself in a full-length mirror before stepping out onto the street.

 

[bradefolums]

My question is, based on your understanding of the penal code cited below, does the caspian 2 (blunt tip) spyderco technically not fit the definition of dirk or dagger and thus is concealable?

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.

How is a Spyderco Caspian2 Salt ~ FB22 not capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death?

I think under california code, its both a fixed blade knife and a dirk/dagger

 

[generallobster]

well, I can "stab" my hand with the caspian with a given amount of force and it will not puncture or hurt me. If I use the same amount of force but weild a pencil, pen, screwdriver, or double edged boot knife, I sustain more injury than I would have with the caspian 2. The tip was also designed to be safer than the pointed version to not stab oneself or someone else when using it in the water. The tip is also designed to pry rather than stab. In that sense I don't think the design of the knife, or the knife in practice, fits the definition of dirk or dagger. Could you thrust it hard enough to cause injury? Yes. I could do the same with a shoe, but neither the shoe nor the caspian 2 is a dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code.

 

[Christian]

well, I can "stab" my hand with the caspian with a given amount of force and it will not puncture or hurt me. If I use the same amount of force but weild a pencil, pen, screwdriver, or double edged boot knife, I sustain more injury than I would have with the caspian 2. The tip was also designed to be safer than the pointed version to not stab oneself or someone else when using it in the water. The tip is also designed to pry rather than stab. In that sense I don't think the design of the knife, or the knife in practice, fits the definition of dirk or dagger. Could you thrust it hard enough to cause injury? Yes. I could do the same with a shoe, but neither the shoe nor the caspian 2 is a dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code.

It very well may be depending on the mindset of the officer doing the investigating. It is my opinion that all concealed carry of ANY fixed blade be avoided- irregardless of whether or not it has a pointy tip.

 

[bradefolums]

well, I can "stab" my hand with the caspian with a given amount of force and it will not puncture or hurt me. If I use the same amount of force but weild a pencil, pen, screwdriver, or double edged boot knife, I sustain more injury than I would have with the caspian 2. The tip was also designed to be safer than the pointed version to not stab oneself or someone else when using it in the water. The tip is also designed to pry rather than stab. In that sense I don't think the design of the knife, or the knife in practice, fits the definition of dirk or dagger. Could you thrust it hard enough to cause injury? Yes. I could do the same with a shoe, but neither the shoe nor the caspian 2 is a dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code.

Are you trying to say the knife doesn't cut? Penal code doesn't say "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death by stabbing." Besides being a sharp knife, that knife still has plenty of hardness and pointyness to take out throat and eyes by stabbing, and the penal code doesn't assign a prerequisite level of pointyness or stabability


Also, they'd probably charge it as a metal knuckle

(7) As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.

the charge may be bogus, but its one of those things they regularly add for negotiation purposes (take the deal and we'll drop the knuckles charge)




For another example consider pc 171b

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or
local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the
public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section
11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one
year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded
position by the use of one or two hands.

Technically you could have a pen knife in a courthouse but the sheriffs/LEOs at the courthouse regularly disallow/confiscate all blades, even those tiny razorblades smaller than a penny that are only good for cutting sewing thread. If somehow you found yourself past the metal detectors with a swiss army knife and the LEOs discovered it, they'd arrest for sure.

 

[ColonelX]

just so im completely clear here, is it legal for me to carry a Vox Gnome with a 2in blade on by belt openly here in CA?

 

[goodeyesniper]

To me it seems like you take the same risk carrying any of those oversized folders or any scary looking folder like the civilian--it doesn't fit the criteria of dirk or dagger as defined by the penal code, but for practical purposes, an leo could still give you trouble without understanding the law in detail, charge you with an offense, and place the burden of having to clear things up in the courts on you. The whole blade longer than the length of your palm or gravity knife by some ill conceived definition would seem to put anyone carrying folders at the same risk.

You're right that any LEO could take it the wrong way, however we have ample case law that specifically states that a folding knife, folded in your pocket is not readily accessible as a dirk/dagger. So with even a halfway decent lawyer, you would KNOW the outcome of the case goes in your favor.

On the other hand, it's pretty widely accepted that a concealed fixed blade is readily used as a dirk/dagger, and just because it has a blunted tip, the fact that it has two sharp edge would probably go against you. Remember, guys get busted with SCREWDRIVERS as concealed dirk/dagger, and they are just as blunt as the caspian 2, and they are specifically NOT made to be razor sharp cutting tools, unlike the caspian 2.

I'd say you would have slim to no chance of getting out of there favorably.

just so im completely clear here, is it legal for me to carry a Vox Gnome with a 2in blade on by belt openly here in CA?

Of course it is. You can also carry a 14" bowie knife openly on your belt (barring a strict, local law like LA)

The problem is concealing.

 

[c.joe]

@bradefolums,

What does it mean by "local public building" ?

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or
local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the
public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section
11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one
year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded
position by the use of one or two hands.

 

[Ramm9]

@bradefolums,

What does it mean by "local public building" ?

This is the last section... P.C. 171b (c)

(c) As used in this section, "state or local public building"
means a building that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It is a building or part of a building owned or leased by the
state or local government, if state or local public employees are
regularly present for the purposes of performing their official
duties. A state or local public building includes, but is not limited
to, a building that contains a courtroom.
(2) It is not a building or facility, or a part thereof, that is
referred to in Section 171c, 171d, 626.9, 626.95, or 626.10 of this
code, or in Section 18544 of the Elections Code.
(3) It is a building not regularly used, and not intended to be
used, by state or local employees as a place of residence.