Ca law cannot conceal locking folder?

O

Oberkommando

Joined
Oct 23, 1999
Messages
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I want to thank you again Jim March for your reply to my previous post about legal length my question is this info i obtained from knifeart.com about kalifornia true.

by Chuck Cunningham

California
Summary: Anything capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon is illegal. All concealed knives are a felony (except non locking folders).
Max length: chaotic
Specifically illegal: Switchblades, gravity knives, exotic conceal methods (pen, lipstick, whatever)
Relevant laws: PC 653K, PC 12020(24), California Laws, Commentary (apparently removed - someone know where?)
Note that interpretations by cops and judges are wildly varied. Police have actually told law-abiding citizens to break the concealment laws, and a judge has deemed a blunt-point knife (Spyderco Mariner) a stabbing weapon.
Quirks: Pens may be illegal (potential stabbing weapon).
Local restrictions:
Los Angeles
Three inch limit for open carry without a good explanation.

 
He's got it very wrong re: the concealed locking folders, thank the diety of your choice.

What's going on is that PC12020 has a blanket ban on carrying "concealed readily available stabbing implements". It then goes on to say that a folder concealed in the CLOSED position is "not readily available within the meaning of this statute".

Here, a I think a direct quote is in order, from http://www.leginfo.ca.gov :

-------------------------
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
-------------------------

SO: if you rig up a sheath that holds your folder in the OPEN position and then you conceal that, you're screwed. But this is by no means a ban on lockblades; note the reference to "so long as it's legal under PC653k" - we've already gone into that, it's what makes thumbstuds/thumbholes specifically legal and most certainly covers legal lockblades of every type other than autos and BaliSongs.

California knife law really isn't that bad. It's kinda convoluted but...trust me, there's worse. Jesus, Wash State has a thing whereby any open-carry knife or folder that you pull for some minor utility task THAT SCARES ANYBODY ELSE is automatically a misdemeanor against you! GAG! PUKE! CHOKE!

biggrin.gif


Jim
 
Uh, I think something's a little askew here:
All concealed knives are a felony (except non locking folders).
Click to expand...
In everything I've read about the CA knife laws, the rule is that concealed carry of a dirk or dagger is a felony, with "dirk or dagger" being defined as something "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon", and this specifically does not include a folding knife that is currently in its closed state. So the above should read more like, "All concealed knives are a felony (except unopened folders)".

There are others here who are much more well versed in this than I, who can expound upon this, but I wanted to get an answer up quickly.

Obligatory Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor have I ever played one on TV.

------------------
Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921

Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
 
Thanks Jim and Carl, Sorry about beating a dead horse, I just didnt want to spend money on a nice custom folder and find out it has to stay at home with 1911 (the 1911 can protect itself).

(I don't have a ccw,am not lawyer, politician, judge, or friend of any of these)
 
Neck knives are a problem unless they're worn exposed, OR in theory they might be OK if they lack a stabbing tip. As an example, I've carried the Myerchin A500 as a sleeve-rig, see also http://www.myerchin.com - it's a "true sheepsfoot" and could be explained away as something without the "stabbing implement" notation.

If anyone is interested in a California CCW, on 12/20/99 my trial against Sheriff Rupf of Contra Costa County starts! I'm the PLAINTIFF, alleging illegal CCW issuance policies, racism, corruption, elitism and other unconstitutional acts regarding permit issuance or rather, lack thereof.

Ah'm gonna KICK HIS ARSE!

ALSO: this document is unlinked from the rest of my site and will form the "core of my case" - it's an analysis and denouncement of Rupf's published CCW policies. Some of this stuff could radically change CCW issuance statewide, especially the bits about Sheriffs refusing to issue to city residents: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw

Jim March
Equal Rights for CCW Home Page http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw
 
A couple of years ago, I took a few fixed blade knives openly from my car, 20 feet to the elevator, up to the 7th floor, and down the hall to my office. Somebody in the elevator with me must have been alarmed. 30 minutes later, two Glendale, CA police officers come into the office, and ask the receptionist if she had seen a guy running around with a knife. She said there was this guy who sells knives in the office right behind her. The cop sighed with relief. When I got off the phone, the cops came in and told me I should carry my knives out of sight from now on. I said, "but that would be concealed carry," and they said again that I should keep them out of sight. When a couple of cops who have come to discuss my carrying a knife clearly want to move on, I'm not going to argue with them.
wink.gif


As for folders, I walk around with at least two pocket clips showing, and no cop has ever questioned me about them. In California, a conventional one-hand folder of any size is legal in its natural habitat, the pocket.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Every once in a while I too have to transport one or more fixed-blades that I'm not wearing, just like James did. My solution in such cases is to "peace knot" each knife into it's sheath in such fashion that it cannot be drawn. String between lanyard hole and belt loop or something equivelent...it's always possible.

At that point, you've eliminated the "readily available" portion of the "dirk or dagger" definition and as far as I can tell, it's legal to carry them concealed.

The string should be at least plausibly strong enough to hold it even if you try and rip it out. Leather lace, paracord or whatever is perfect.

I got the idea from the local Renfaires, where they regularly peace-knot people's large cutlery as they're coming into the show. No problem. Then again, I make sure I have a small hidden one-hand folder around, 'cuz I'll be damned if I'll carry serious cutlery without being able to draw. That's just not done
smile.gif
.

Jim
 
One word of caution if traveling in LA with a folder. I've been told by two LAPD cops that despite the state law (in effect) allowing concealed carry of a folder of any length, there IS a length limit in LA on folders, too. I think they said 4". I don't know if this is a county or city ordinance or if it's plain old urban legend. Anyone have access to the City/County codes?

Every CA resident should become familiar with Pen.Code 12020. There's some funky things prohibited by that one...
 
Re: PC12020: you got THAT right! I only quoted the very tail end; the rest prohibits ownership and/or carry of all KINDS of weird crap, some of which I have no clue what the heck they are.

I've heard a rumor that most of this was to try and disarm the Black Panthers back in the 60's. They apparantly got fairly "Medieval" at one point...

Jim
 
The Los Angeles law only applies to open carry of "daggers," and defines them as any knife with a blade three or more inches long. Exceptions are knives carried for a lawful occupation or recreation or a recognized religious practice.

If 90% of the knife, except for the pocket clip and the butt or pivot, is down inside the pocket, it's sort of concealed, isn't it?
At least that's how they'd call it if it was a discretely carried fixed blade.

Here's the text of the city ordinance, as cloned verbatim by the city of Glendale and published on their web page, where I found it and copied it: home.earthlink.net/~jkmtsm/citylaw.html

When I asked about it when it was first enacted, some authority figure told me that I didn't sound like I fit the profile of a gang member, so I shouldn't worry. It's another one of those selective enforcement tools.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 27 October 1999).]
 
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