Calculating slicing resistance

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Jul 28, 2013
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One method of calculating slicing resistance

On a knife blade with flat sides that taper gradually from spine to edge, the ratio between spine thickness and blade height, measured at the middle of the spine halfway between grip and point, helps to define the shape of the wedge and thus reveals a good deal about the amount of slicing resistance to be expected.

After dividing spine thickness by blade height, what one should be looking for in a good kitchen slicer is a ratio that does not exceed 0.08. The smaller that ratio is, the less resistance the blade’s wedge will create while slicing.

Here are four examples:
1. The F. Dick 1787 Chef’s Knife with a 23 cm blade, a really fine slicer, has a spine thickness of 1.8 mm and a blade height of 42 mm, which amounts to a slicing resistance ratio (can we call it SRR?) of 0.043 (1.8 ÷ 42 = 0.043).
2. The Wüstof Classic 23 cm cook's knife, also a great performer in the kitchen, has a spine thickness of 2.4 mm and a blade height of 44 mm, thus it weighs in at SRR 0.055 (2.4 ÷ 44 = 0.055).
3. My wonderful Marble’s hunting knife from the 1950’s, one with a 10 cm blade, has a spine thickness of 3.7 mm and a blade height of 24 mm, giving us a slicing resistance ratio of 0.154 (3.7 ÷ 24 = 0.154). As I mentioned, anything above 0.08 is going to resist traveling through vegetables more than will please the average cook, and this applies to the Marble’s.
4. My 1970’s J.A. Henckel’s “Nicker,” a German hunting knife with a traditional form developed long ago for severing the spine of a wounded wild boar, has an 11.4 cm blade, a 5 mm spine thickness and a 20 mm blade height, which translates to 0.25 on this scale (5 ÷ 20 = 0.25). As the number indicates, this knife is a genuine wedge, has high slicing resistance and its geometry comes closer to resembling an axe than a kitchen knife, which of course it is not. Use this to slice onions while out in the woods and you will marvel at the drag. It can be and is done, but if there were such a thing as a Slicing Joy Ratio (SJR), this knife, magnificent as it is, would come in close to last place.

One could calculate all this in reverse, divide height by spine thickness, and the numbers created that way would also tell a story about resistance, but in inverse order: the lower the number, the higher the resistance. When done that way, a figure around 20 or higher would define a good slicer. There are also ways to use three figures (spine thickness and both sides of the blade) to calculate a triangle and, in the end, arrive at the angle from edge to spine. That, however, requires a dose of trigonometry and much more time.

I prefer the first method mentioned above, dividing spine thickness by blade height at the center of the spine. That way, any low-resistance knife will begin with a crisp 0.0..., and the lower the number, the lower the resistance. Other kitchen knives I have used that behave well when working on vegetables have slicing resistance ratios between 0.075 and 0.033. There are, however, limits to this. If it gets too low, like below 0.03, there will be issues with blade stability, and anything above 0.1, as seen in the last two examples above, will cause problems trying to squeeze itself through carrots and onions. A knife with a slicing resistance ratio of 0.2 or higher is better suited for hunting or commando raids.

This is not the only factor that determines slicing resistance; above all, blade smoothness and blade shape must also be considered. Polishing the sides of a blade with a good metal polish will help any knife to slice easier. As far as shape is concerned, a thicker blade with a pronounced point (as opposed to a traditional Chinese cook’s knife, a rectangle when viewed from the side) being pulled across a slicing board with handle held high, will work its way through vegetables somewhat easier than would normally be expected simply because the height of the blade decreases toward the point, thus there is less steel on the flanks to cause drag.

This method of calculating slicing resistance applies only to blades that taper gradually from spine to edge, a very common shape among kitchen knives. A knife with a Scandinavian grind (beginning at the spine, both sides of the blade remain parallel for some distance before beginning to taper down to the edge) will have a much more pronounced wedge than its slicing resistance ratio says it has, at least when calculated using the method described above: If its wedge were to continue at the same angle from edge all the way to spine, the spine would be considerably thicker and the knife would resemble the Henckel’s Nicker mentioned earlier. Many of those fine single-beveled Japanese knives (flat on one side, tapered on the other) also resemble a single-sided Scandinavian grind; I have no experience with them and cannot yet say how their slicing resistance might be reflected using this method. And attempting to calculate slicing resistance with a knife sporting a hollow grind, which is intended to reduce drag by decreasing the thickness of the blade immediately above the edge, would require more knowledge of math and physics than I can offer.

I have no idea if this system of measurement has been introduced elsewhere. I’ve been around knives for a very long time and have never run across anything similar to it. I came up with it without any assistance and apologize in advance if it’s common knowledge and if I thus appear to have stolen it from someone else, which I didn’t.

I realize that most people who know knives will tend to scoff at a scale like this because an experienced eye can tell at a glance what slicing resistance will be like. Nonetheless, not everyone can be expected to have an experienced eye and there are those who like to have a number as a point of reference.

Sam
 
I like this concept a lot, but I think one important variable missing is thickness behind the edge, which can have a pretty profound effect on slicing ability.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Thickness behind the edge, and thickness behind that and behind that and behind that, all the way to the spine, is precisely what this is all about.

With knives of the kind I refer to here, where the sides of the blade are basically a level plane, the thickness behind the edge increases gradually from that point to the spine. That gradually increasing blade thickness is (with this blade form) what defines slicing resistance -- provided the knife is sharp and the sides of the blade are smooth. Of course, on its way from the spine to the edge, this plane is interrupted, for the final millimeter, by the secondary bevel, that which we work on when sharpening the knife. If we were in a Harvard lab, this would have to be taken into consideration. Here, and for this concept, I suggest that we ignore the final millimeter, which in itself can contain an infinite number of variables. If it's to make any sense at all, and I think it does, this concept requires us to focus only on the big picture -- either that, or we'll have to forget the entire thing.
 
A small slicer/paring knife. 8 1/2" overall length, 3.95" cutting edge, 1 5/8" at widest point. Ultra thin blade, 0.45" at the spine, 0.005 edge, 0.02" 1/4" up, 0.03" 1/2" up. Blade is Starrett O1 at Rc62-63. book matched red oak scales with brass corby bolts, handle is 1" tall, 3/4" thick. using your formula we have blade height of 41mm with spine thickness of 1.15mm or a slicing resistance number of 0.028.

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scott
 
Wonderful knife, thanks for sharing and for calculating the dimensions. Reading the 0.028 slicing resistance tells me all the way across the Atlantic that this is a master slicer, one that I would return to quickly in all kinds of situations. Its blade will slice raw potatoes by just looking at them.

My knife with the lowest slicing resistance ratio is a Shibazi Chinese cook's knife (rectangular when viewed from the side) with an 18 cm blade, 2 mm spine width and 82 mm blade height, a slicing resistance ratio of 0.024. However, this number is slightly misleading because the blade is not a continuously tapering wedge from edge to spine; it appears to widen gradually in the inch or so above the edge, then increases less in width from there to the spine. If its wedge angle were to continue at the same rate from edge to spine that it starts with, the spine would be somewhat thicker and the ratio would probably be closer to a 0.06.

The knife that I consider to be my best slicer of raw potatoes is a Vietnamese Authentic Blades with an 11.5 cm blade, 1.1 mm spine thickness and 23 mm blade height at mid-spine. That makes for a slicing resistance ratio of 0.048. This may appear illogical but isn't because the blade is extremely thin from top to bottom and has a pronounced point, which means that the area near the point slips through everything due to thinness (and sharpness) and rapidly decreasing blade height, so there's less drag all around.

Sam
 
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i have made several knives like the one shown. What readers need to understand is that these are very thin, very hard blades that are not made to take abuse. i have also made some test blades from 0.8mm(1/32 or 0.035") O1 that tested at Rc64. the edge was 5 degree per side scandi with a 10 dps microbevel. I think once you get below 1mm spine thickness, you really don't need full flat grind for max performance.
scott
 
I like this concept a lot, but I think one important variable missing is thickness behind the edge, which can have a pretty profound effect on slicing ability.

I agree that the thickness behind the edge (BTE) can pay a huge factor in "cutting ability" (maybe "cutting performance" would be a better general name/ parameter) which is not measured by the width to height ratio. I was discussing this with a maker, and the difference between two knives of similar grind and mid-blade width but different thickness BTE was very noticeable for push cuts on hard products and even made a difference in certain slicing applications (onion brunoise dice, where the cut end isn't separating fully from the rest of the vegetable). And the difference seemed small in absolute terms, like 0.02" versus 0.01" or less, but I could feel quite a difference in cutting and slicing performance.

I'm not sure who originated it, but I think Bob Kramer tared/zeroed a digital scale with product/vegetable on it and then measured the pounds of force different knives took to cut through it. This would be a more direct measure of performance IMHO. There are too many types of bevel grinds for proposed slicing resistance ratio to be very good measure of performance I think, but a decent starting point for discussion?
 
Absent some sort of objective method of determining "slicing resistance" then this in an exercise in subjective opinions and anecdotal statements. I don't want to spoil the party so just carry on.
 
I read your post quickly, and found it interesting. A good slicer, particularly in the kitchen, is ALWAYS a good time.
I think that I will have to read it several more times, and slow down a bit, in order to take it all in. As a first pass, however, I am impressed, even though it all seems rather logical.
 
it is pretty basic, a thin edge cuts easier than a thick one. the only objective method i have heard of for slicing resistance or force, is cutting on a scale. then i can say my Sliczfine needed 25.67 grams of force to cut the roast while your Chopalot need 55 grams to make the same cut. as a rule of thumb, blade thickness at the edge and 1/4" & 1/2" BTE will determine how well you can slice. slicing is not the only kitchen cut, the knife i pictured above is not what i would choose if I had to finely chop 5 pounds of carrots, but would be the choice if I had to cut 'see-thru' carrot slices for garnish.
scott
 
I agree that the thickness behind the edge (BTE) can pay a huge factor in "cutting ability" ... I think Bob Kramer tared/zeroed a digital scale with product/vegetable on it and then measured the pounds of force different knives took to cut through it. This would be a more direct measure of performance IMHO.

I'm sure there are any number of ways to measure these things, but I have no way of calculating pounds of force while cutting something. I have no lab at my disposal, just a caliper, ruler and calculator. And please remember that this admittedly amateurish attempt at finding a number to express something we all feel when working with a knife applies only to knives with a V-grind, a grind that basically and without interruption continues at the same angle from edge to spine. What this formula is trying to do is to give us exactly what you are asking for: an idea of how much blade width will be following the edge once it works its way through the surface of whatever it is slicing. The knives I talk about here are predictable in that they have a constant angle beginning at the edge, and this formula provides us with a number that corresponds with the increasing thickness of the blade as it heads up to the spine. There are zillions of kitchen knives out there that fit this category. Those that don't, like hollow-ground knives or a so-called Scandanavian grind, will need another formula that I am incapable of providing. Someone out there probably can and will.

One can also simply measure the angle of the "V", but without proper equipment this is much more complicated than the formula I propose.

On a knife with a V-grind, I claim that this extremely simple formula (spine width divided by blade height when measured near the middle of the spine) will let you know at a distance and even when written out on paper what kind of slicing resistance this blade will create when slicing vegetables on your kitchen counter. As mentioned, sharpness, blade smoothness and shape (if the blade is pointed or not) also contribute to slicing resistance. The secondary bevel, the very narrow one we create with our sharpening stones, will also have a word to say in this, but if we take that into consideration, we will spend the rest of our days trying to calculate something that has an infinite number of variables and we will never get past first base.

Again: When measuring at a spot around mid-distance between handle and point, divide spine thickness by blade height. Any result between 0.025 (scott.livesey caused me to correct my original estimate of around 0.03) and 0.075 will have us smiling in the kitchen. The lower that number, the thinner the blade, the easier it will slip through firm vegetables and the broader the smile. If it gets too low, there may be issues with blade stability. If it's too high, it begins to take on the shape of a wedge and it will need much more pressure to work its way through those carrots (which Bob Kramer can measure, but I can't). Due to the other variables that enter in, the number we arrive at here is nothing that claims to be the absolute truth, but it does indeed give you a pretty good idea of what slicing resistance will be like.

And don't believe a word I say. Please try it out and form your own opinion.

Sam
 
For what I mentioned that Bob Kramer did (if he was the one), all you need is a digital scale that you can tare with the product on it and watch the weight reading when you cut through it while on the scale. Also, an inexpensive digital caliper and you can measure the thickness behind the edge, basically what is right behind the cutting bevel. I have done this for knives I have, and it seems like anything above 0.015" to 0.02" has considerable resistance on push cuts.

Germany may be different than the US, I am in the US and almost no kitchen knives at the store are a straight full flat grind. The majority of cheap ones are some type of scandi grind, even a lot of more expensive ones seem to be scandi grind or a convex grind. I bet most robot manufactured knives are sharpened with a slight hollow grind on a huge stone of some type.

I'm not totally discounting your "slicing resistance" number, just that people need to be judicious in using it as a judge of cutting performance, i.e. it depends on the knife. And of course the best test is using it on whatever you want to cut.
 
I'm not sure who originated it, but I think Bob Kramer tared/zeroed a digital scale with product/vegetable on it and then measured the pounds of force different knives took to cut through it. This would be a more direct measure of performance IMHO. There are too many types of bevel grinds for proposed slicing resistance ratio to be very good measure of performance I think, but a decent starting point for discussion?

Not BK. :)
I talked to Tran about my method when he stayed with me for the PNG and he went on to post about this on KKF...but yes, it's a good baseline but doesn't account for a variety of other factors.
 
The majority of cheap ones are some type of scandi grind, even a lot of more expensive ones seem to be scandi grind or a convex grind. I bet most robot manufactured knives are sharpened with a slight hollow grind on a huge stone of some type.

This formula works best on a full flat V-grind, so if you are surrounded by other grinds, it won't help much. The picture the formula is trying to paint pertains only to the distance the blade has to travel to get from width x to width y. Width x is that of the spine, say 2.5 mm, and width y is that of the cutting edge, which will be pretty darn close to 0 mm. It's a wedge, a triangle, but how wide is that wedge at its thickest point and how far does it have to go before the two sides meet? Two blades with identical spine width but different blade height will have differing wedges, and the number we arrive at with this formula helps define that. At least it gives us some notion of what kind of wedge will have to force itself through all those vegetables.

As I alluded to in my first post, just about everyone who spends much time at bladeforums will have little use for a formula like this. We look at a blade, turn it over and immediately have formed a fairly accurate opinion of its slicing performance. Yet we are only a tiny minority and are far removed from the vast and silent slicing majority. Most people looking for a kitchen knife are clueless and some would be pleased to be told that this (full flat grind) blade will, as a slicer of vegetables, perform admirably in their kitchen (provided it is sharp and kept that way), then be able to see a number that supports this opinion.

Sam
 
Not BK. :)
I talked to Tran about my method when he stayed with me for the PNG and he went on to post about this on KKF...but yes, it's a good baseline but doesn't account for a variety of other factors.

Oops, easy to get Bob Kramer and Ian Roberts mixed up, both making awesome knives out of the PNW, right? ;)
 
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