California double-edged blade - what is concealment?

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ekkis

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May 2, 2014
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I have a fixed-blade knife, double-edged and serrated on both sides that I would like to carry in my boot.

I have read through the California Penal Code and find no proscriptions against fixed blades and no mention of double-edges, however there is a question as to whether the knife is carried concealed. Thus I've looked for a definition of concealed, knowing full well that for the sake of law, regular words may have special definitions. I have not found one.

it seems its a felony to carry a fixed blade concealed, however, what does concealed mean? if a knife is partially concealed, is it considered to be concealed?

in order to reach the knife quickly, its handle would be easy to grab, which also means it's visible, but what if it's a black knife in a black boot with black pants? could the argument be made that it's "concealed" since it's not prominently visible? sort of, hidden in plain sight...?

how does this work?
 
You asked the same questions in a recent thread entitled "Double Edged Knives in California". I gave my best answer in that thread based on my personal experience on the subject, and the advice of my criminal defense attorney. But perhaps someone else can provide a more convincing answer.

Aside from my previous answers, all I can suggest is that you do what I do when I have a knife-related legal question- consult with a criminal defense attorney who works in California and knows the knife laws inside and out. Beyond that, all you are likely to get here are the opinions of anonymous strangers (like me). And while some opinions shared here might be legally accurate, the opinions of anonymous strangers on an internet forum will not be accepted as a defense if you wind up in court. If you tell a judge "You can't lock me up because a guy on Bladeforums said it was legal", that judge will laugh their ass off as they send you off to jail.

Your only real options are (a) Consult an attorney and either take their advice, or not, whatever you choose. (b) Carry your knife the way you want and take your chances. or (c) Avoid any risk at all by not carrying any fixed-blade, in any manner. The bottom line is- there is no one, not even an attorney, who can tell you anything that will offer you absolute guaranteed protection from arrest. Unless of course they tell you "Don't carry ANY fixed-blade at all". Because that's that only real way to GUARANTEE you won't ever be arrested for carrying a fixed-blade.

Where the written law lacks clarity, specifics, and definition, there is room for interpretation, opinion, and human error on the part of law enforcement. And that means we either take our chances and risk arrest, or we make the choice to avoid the risk altogether. There are no black and white, definitive answers to your questions. The law can be as imperfect as those whose job it is to enforce it. Those of us who carry knives take our chances. So I say good luck to us all, and always keep the number of a good attorney handy.
 
Killgar gave a pretty good answer in that other thread. If your still worried about it my advice than is don't risk it and just carry a folder, less hassle. From a college class being taught on law from an attorney I have a vague memory of this stuff and it isn't all black and white and is just shades of gray sometimes for interpretation of the law.

A lot of it will come down to what the cop reports, how they report it, etc. And from getting to know quite a few people who want to become cops there are definitely some bad apples among them if they ever get hired they will be from the get go or I bet they will be shortly after, fewer good ones, and the rest fall in the middle. Hopefully your local LEO's are careful on who they hire and weed out the bad ones but seeing how that profession draws some power hungry people I tend to be cautious when it comes to the law just in case. Felonies tend to stick with you and if you think it's a risk weigh the pros and cons of it if your not sure.
 
I remember hearing of a case afew years ago where there was a guy dressed as a ninja or whatever. They gave him no problem for the sword on his back or the knives on his belt but he was charged for the knife tucked into his boot. My understanding is that in ca it needs to be fully visible, both sheath and handle
 
The best protection in the law that we have here in California regarding the open carry of fixed-blades is CA penal code 20200. This statute specifically states that a knife worn openly in a sheath hanging from the waist is not considered concealed. This is one of the reasons why I carry my fixed-blade in a sheath on my belt, so that I will be within the letter of the law as much as possible, and so I would have the best chance of avoiding an arrest, or having an arrest quickly overturned.

Unfortunately, the CA penal code doesn't say anything about carrying a fixed-blade in ones boot. And since the penal code (20200) is very specific in it's language regarding what isn't considered concealed, it's very possible that an ambitious prosecutor might look upon a fixed-blade carried in a boot as an opening for prosecution and an opportunity for a conviction. Prosecutors will generally interpret the law, and the details of a case, in a way that is LEAST FAVORABLE to the defendant. Don't expect them to interpret things in a way that is best for the defendant.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a position where I had to try and explain to a jury why I was carrying a dagger in my boot. I wouldn't want my freedom to depend on my (or some lawyers) ability to convince a jury that the dagger in my boot was completely innocent. I've been through the criminal justice system, I've spent time in jail, and I've spent time in prison, and believe me, something you really want to avoid in life is having to explain yourself to a jury. Because no matter how it turns out, it's going to be a very unpleasant and expensive experience.
 
I bought a Gerber double sided blade back in 1978. The store clerk was a retired California LEO and he was quite adamant in warning me that the knife/sheath had to be fully visible at all times. He also told me that even part of the handle being partially covered by a jacket would make it concealed within the meaning of the statute.

To show how strict California prosecutors can be, they tried prosecuting a Renaissance performer because his fully visible knife and sheath were worn on the outside of his boot rather than worn on his waist. The court interpreted the statute's language about a fully visible knife/sheath being legal when worn on the waist did not preclude a fully visible knife/sheath worn on the defendant's boot. Can't remember now if that was a trial court's decision or an appellate court decision. Regardless, the lesson is that the knife/sheath must be fully visible and that prosecutors will pursue the narrowest possible interpretation of the statute.
 
In response to jbass's story I went looking for caselaw to see if I could find the details. While was unable to locate the Ren Faire Performer case, I did find others.

One of the more interesting is People v. Pellecer, decided just last year (2013) in April. It establishes that carry inside a closed container, such as a backpack, is not "concealed upon the person" within the meaning of the statutory language and is therefore legal. As per my usual comment about not attracting the cops attention by being an idiot, Pellecer was not some mild-manner dude just quietly minding his own business. He was hiding out in an enclosed patio in a public park at 2:30am and someone called it in as a suspected burglary. Pellecer was compliant when told to come out with his hands up etc. and he had no drugs or anything else on him except a backpack with 3 kunai (ninja throwing knives with the ring in the handle). He was obviously up to something but the cops had no proof of anything and so used the knives as an "excuse charge." He was acquitted.

Another Case, In re Luke W., stated the following:
“The policy underlying the prohibition against concealed weapons is based on the protection of those persons who may come into contact with a weapon bearer. If a weapon is not concealed, one may take notice of the weapon and its owner and govern oneself accordingly, but no such opportunity for cautious behavior or self-preservation exists for one encountering the bearer of a concealed weapon. In light of this policy, the question whether a particular weapon was concealed should be considered from the point of view of one approaching the location of the weapon, and the intent of the defendant as to concealment should not be considered, since a defendant's innocent intent does not make a concealed weapon any more visible.”
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I haven't read the Pellecer case recently but if I recall correctly the defendant was a transient and he was not wearing his backpack at the time of his arrest. I think the pack was next to him or even a foot or so away from him. I will have to look that up. I would not go so far as to say that the court found that carrying a weapon inside a backpack while wearing it is legal. However, it is a foot in the door for such a finding in the future. Being a cautious sort I will continue to carry any fixed blade knife strapped to the outside of my pack or on my belt in plain view.
 
As I understand it, and IANAL, to be considered "concealed" a knife has to be:
a) Readily accessible. In a quick access or outside pocket of a purse, buttpack, messenger, etc.is accessible. Buried at the bottom of you pack isn't There was a case (People V Luke?) where a swiss card carried in a wallet was not considered concealed since it required several steps to access the knife.
b) Not readily apparent as a knife. Such as a sheath clipped inside of a pocket or waist band. Disguised as jewelry or other implement is illegal no matter how it's carried.
 
killgar said:
You asked the same questions in a recent thread entitled "Double Edged Knives in California". I gave my best answer in that thread based on my personal experience on the subject
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I was monitoring the thread but I didn't realize this forum doesn't nest the replies so I hadn't seen it and decided to post it as a separate question.

thank you for taking the time to write on both threads. it's a sorry state of affairs that if we're going to write laws, we don't make things clear. leaving such important matters up to the interpretation of a system bent on incarceration is a recipe for merely that, incarceration, and has little to do with justice or what makes sense from a social perspective.

so I guess the answer is that if I want to carry a fixed blade, I better make sure it's perfectly concealed and I'll know exactly where I stand i.e. I'm committing a felony but I'm also not giving the system any opportunity to act
 
so in view of the abstruseness of the law with regards to knife carry, I'm thinking to print any relevant material I can find that I could carry with me in case law enforcement were to stop me, so I can educate them as to the law.

can anyone recommend statutes, case law or any other relevant material that could deter a cop from confiscating a knife or arresting a person carrying one?
 
ekkis said:
so in view of the abstruseness of the law with regards to knife carry, I'm thinking to print any relevant material I can find that I could carry with me in case law enforcement were to stop me, so I can educate them as to the law.

can anyone recommend statutes, case law or any other relevant material that could deter a cop from confiscating a knife or arresting a person carrying one?
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I have often recommended that people make a printout of any knife laws that may apply to them and carry them on their person (this was recommended to me by my current attorney). The reason for the printout is that not every cop on the street knows the law. Having a printout of the law may or may not help you when dealing with a cop. As always, there are no guarantees.

Here's a short story of a guy I once knew at work. The guy had taken my example and started carrying a fixed-blade. Sometimes he carried it openly on his belt, sometimes in his backpack. One night while riding his bicycle he was stopped by a cop "because he resembled a suspect". The cop searched his backpack and found the knife. The cop then proclaimed that the knife was illegal and that he was going to confiscate it. But the guy said "Hey wait, I have a printout of the law right here" and proceeded to retrieve it from his wallet. Upon hearing this the cop immediately said "Ok, ok" and gave the guy back his knife and sent him on his way. Now who knows what went through the cops mind, perhaps he realized that he was dealing with someone who actually knew the law, knew their rights, and would make a fuss over an illegally confiscated knife.

The guy was very proud of himself when he told me the story, and I felt a certain pride myself. I was also proud of the fact that when the cop pulled the knife from the guys backpack and said "Why are you carrying this WEAPON" the guy said exactly what I advised him to say in such a situation "It's not a WEAPON, it's a TOOL".

As far as what legal statutes to print out and carry, if a person in California is openly carrying a fixed-blade on their waist/belt, then I would suggest carrying a printout of CA penal code 20200, because it is directly on point regarding such carry.

If anyone wants recommendations for statutes in California state law pertaining to folding knives, I can provide them.
 
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oh... and could anyone recommend a good criminal lawyer that knows this stuff in Los Angeles?
 
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