Call for discussion. Custom knife "clones" from other makers.

shootist16

shootist16

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I would like to have input about custom makers making "clones" of other makers work. Most makers have at least one signature design in their line up. For example, Pat Crawford's KFF, Brian Tighe's Tighe Fighter, and Kit Carson's model 4. Is it okay for a maker to make a design of another makers work? I'm not talking about making a knife that has been influenced by another, I'm talking about making a knife that is an obvious copy.
 
The question could be posed as, what makes it different enough to not be an obvious copy?

A Kit Carson Model 4 is unique once you pick it up and handle it but, I have seen other that appear to be very similar with subtle changes here and there. In the hand they feel very different.
 
Innovation is something that drives the marketplace, rippoffs are akin to sitting in the back seat while someone else is driving!!! :rolleyes:
 
Is it okay for a maker to make a design of another makers work?
Click to expand...

I would say, it's okay as long as the copier has a written permission from the original maker.

I like Bill Moran's knife.

Can I buy it ? May be if I sell one of my limbs !

Solution ? Ask Moran's permission to have a copy made.

Example: Wally Hayes and Moran ST24 Fighter
 
Exact copies suck.

It is understandable that alot of knives are going to look alot alike. However when "special" design features are stolen it is obviuos that the offending maker is just to lazy or dumb to come up with something on thier own.

This is not counting copies that are made with the designer/makers permission of course.

These little features would be stuff like Rinaldi's slanted guard, Simmonich's bizarre little thumb ramp thingy, the false back edge facet on my MAUs, Emersons Wave, Onions flipper and many many other little things.

When you can not tell the differance in photos, its just too close. Take all the Strider clones for example. Thats a pretty ****** thing to do. They are exact copies. Really sucks.

But it is even worse when fellow formites ripe off each other. Its one thing not to know the person (does not make it right), but when you know them and they blatently ripe you off. Now thats slimey.

I have had people telling me for almost a year that I have been getting cloned by another formite. I did not believe it thinking that it was mearly chance. Then I saw an add in the back of a knife mag that was an exact copy of one of my designs. This was by the same maker that everyone was saying had been copying my work. I am still fuming over it. You just do not expect it from someone in the same small group as you. But its just all part of the business I guess. In a perfect world the guys doing the copies would quickly go out of business. But this ain't a perfect world and some guys get rich by standing on the knives they put in the backs of other makers.
 
I'm a relatvely newby to this sport of making knives, 9 total so far, and I have already had someone with a long standing reputation in the knifemaking world rip off one of my designs. Of course, he changed the bolsters a little but he kept everything else exactly as I designed it. I have to say that I was pretty pissed off about it. Still am a little. It would have been nice to have gotten some credit for the design. It wouldn't have hurt him at all since he already has his reputation carved in stone.

So, I guess I would have to say, speaking from experience, that anyone is more than welcome to copy one of my designs for their own benefit as long as my name goes along for the ride. Give credit where credit is due.

A word of advice.. Don't send your knives to a knifemaker's wife if you need a sheath made! Lesson learned.

Rick
 
It's unfortunate that there is a market for this stuff, but it also affects other name brands in other areas of merchandise.

What wierds me out is how some folks will go wear a Chanel tee shirt, and the logo is obviously really badly rendered. I mean, it looks like a kid did it. But darn if it stops the wearer from plunking down some pennies so that they can go 'round proudly wearing a designer dud!

I personally will work hard to afford the real thing. There is a pride in the actual knife and the kindred association with the maker. It feels good to support the person whose years of experience has resulted in a particular knife design that I like. This support helps enable still more designs to come forth.
 
Unauthorized copies are rip-offs and I won´t buy ´em.

And why should I pay big bucks for a custom knife - even if the copy is authorized - if the original version can be had at a similar price? Custom collaborations like many manufacturers today come up with are a completely different story.
 
Okay. Since everybody is in agreement here, I'll play the devils advocate. Let’s pretend that I want to buy a Darrel Ralph EDC, but I want it done with a hand forged convex ground 52-100 blade. I call Darrel and he refuses to take on the project. Should I not be able to go to another maker and have the knife made the way I want it to? That is the purpose of ordering a custom made knife, is it not?

PS – This is an entirely fictional hypothetical!!!!
 
Buzzbait, imagine a liquor store owner.

Let´s assume he wanted to offer a special product to attract more customers and comes up with the idea of Jack Daniel´s in 5-gallon bottles. Shaped just like normal Jack Daniel´s bottles, but incredibly magnified.
And now assume the distillery refuses his request for a special production run. Would it then be OK if he went to a different distillery and ask them to produce giant Jack Daniel´s bottles?

Legally and morally: no.
 
Buzzbait,

Your example differs in one major way. It is not the exact same knife. It is a similar knife, and therefor the rules (as I see them) would be differant.

Ideally, if Darrel turned the job down, you should ask if it would be ok for another maker to make the knife. I am sure that almost any maker would agree to that. Then, once you find a maker willing to take on the job, he should double check with Darrel as well. A perfect example of this is something I have going right now. I have a customer that wanted a custom kitchen knife. The design has ended up being basically a TTKK with a Model 10 handle. Well, being that the blade was close enough to Rinaldi's design I cleared it with him first.

On the same note I had a maker e-mail me saying that he was about to put out a model similar to my Model 11. He wasn't exactly asking permission, but just wanted to let me know what was up. No biggy. The design turned out to be so differant that it really did not matter anyways, but it was his forthought that counted.

There seems to be a trend lately of alot of LCC and DDR1 clones surfacing. Mostly from new folder makers that are just learning and are using those knives as working patterns. I personally have no problem with this so long as two conditions are met. First the maker needs to acknowledge that it is a copy and or clone. Second the maker should only put out one or two such knives and not be making dozens for the custom knife market. In an ideal world, it would be best to have the designers blessings as well.
 
Guys,

Seems to be a little instutional knowlege here on the forums.

Most of the ideas that are used today on knives are decades old.

The "Flipper"...cira 1850's on a friction lock. Modern era, I remember seeing Mel Pardue knives with flippers in the early 80's. I was told tonight by another dealer that he thought Phil Boguszewski came up with it before Mel. I don't know.

The "slanted guard". How about G.W. Stone early 1960's. At the same time WW Cronk and Rod Chappel come to mind. If you make any kind of large blade with an exotic grind. Cronk and Chappel get the modern era credit. Don't forget Bill Luckett.

Serrated thumb ramps have been around on guardless fighters since the 50's. Jim Hammond was doing forward of the guard serrations and micro-serrations on his SEAL-TAC's in the mid-80's

This is not to say that makers are not doing new and unique things all the time, they are. Especially with the new equipment that is rapidly becoming available to more and more makers.

Now if someone is making an exact copy of another makers knife. Then permission should be sought.

However, if they are only incorporating "elements" into that knife. Welcome to the free market economy.

No maker works in a vacum. Although many have come up with ideas for their knives independetly of each other.

Jay Sadow once told me he went the to the Metropolitian Museum of Art in New York. He was looking at cira 1600's Dutch painting. He said that in the hand of the hunter was a Loveless style drop point hunter.

Perhaps Bob saw that painting somewhere. More than likely he came up with it through independant thought.

Either way, it would appear that he has been given credit for a style of knife that was made some 300 years before he was born.

New makers will knowingly and unknowingly copy the knives and styles of makers they like. This happens until they start to develop their own style(s).

Ultimately, it is the goal of every custom knife maker to develop their own distinctive style.

As they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". I remember being at a show with a few friends, one of them pointed out a knife that was a very close copy of a LDC knife I designed. He looked at me and said "congratulations...you've been flattered!

If you truly come up with something unique. Apply for patents and copyrights. Expect to spend 10's of thousands of dollars for paperwork, lawyers and the defense of your patents and copyrights.

The balance of "art" and "business" is always precarious.
 
Copying shows a total lack of originality. I do not consider it to be the sincerest form of flattery. Many times it is done out of respect, such as the copies of Bob Loveless, William Scagel and Bo Randall. This is easy to recognize. When it is done because a maker can't come up with a successful design of his/her own, in my opinion it is just pathetic and contemptuous.

Outright copying without the permission of the original designer is at the very least smarmy and at the worst, theft.
 
If you truly come up with something unique. Apply for patents and copyrights. Expect to spend 10's of thousands of dollars for paperwork, lawyers and the defense of your patents and copyrights.
Click to expand...

Les, being a dealer and not a maker I can understand your pragmatic approach to the issue. However, I am sure that you have put allot of time and energy into the knives you have designed. How would you feel if a maker started putting out Vanguard clones?

You can trace back designs as far as you would like but the fact remains that they are associated with certain makers. When you think of a flipper do you think of Pardue? Of course not, Onion is the maker that comes to mind. I do not see Simmonich's little whoop as your run of the mill thumb ramp, it has a style that is all its own and is special to Rob's knives. There are thousands of ways to make a thumb ramp, the only REAL reason someone would choose to use that exact style would be to copy Rob's. The same is true of Trace's slanted guard. There are countless examples of daggers throughout history that are dead ringers for the SF style. But it is still known as a SF.

It is clear that all but one of us here can tell the difference between something similar and an exact rip-off.

As to the whole patent thing. Give me a break. You can not patent style. Trademark maybe, but not patent. Anyhow it seems that you have missed the point of the thread. The point is about makers (not offshore factories) copying other maker’s "style" features. This is a clear attempt of one maker trying to jump on the shirttails of another maker’s success.

There is also a difference between copying and inspiration. I will be the first to admit that I am influenced by other maker’s designs. If I see something that I think looks nice I will see if I can somehow merge it with my own style. If in the finished product it still looks similar to the first maker’s version I give all the credit to that maker for coming up with the idea. This is true even if he was not the first to do said feature. It was his knife that started me thinking, so he gets the credit. This is true with my cord covered neck chains (I think it was Snody who was doing them first IIRC) and with my newer textured G10 screw down handles (totally Rinaldi). And if it looks totally different I will still give that maker credit for the "idea".

It is sad that in a community that is supposed to be "so close knit" that there is so much infighting. It is sickening how many lawsuits are always flying around. Makers suing makers, companies suing makers, makers suing companies and companies suing other companies. It is clear that for some this is only about money. And if they have to lie cheat and steal to make that money, they will do it. If this were any other field of business folks would be going to jail for stuff like insider trading or market price fixing. It really separates those who love knives and those who just love the money they can make off knives.

Now the issue of two makers coming to the same end without any contact with the others knives, that is a totally separate story. Allot of folk’s say how my handles are inspired by Hossom's. Are they? Well, I don't think so. At the most it would be purely subconscious. Are they similar, sure. But the evolution of one has nothing to due with the other. If two makers come up with the same idea at the same time purely by chance? Well, great minds think alike. Neither one is at fault in that case. But when one maker releases a new style and another maker releases the exact same style two months later, that smells mighty fishy to me.
 
RW,

Ok, Im a pragmatist. However, more to the point I am a businessman. I make my living off of buying and reselling custom knives. As such I understand the reality of the market.

Yes, it's true you can't patent or trademark "Style". You can however enter into a very aggressive marketing campaign. Telling potential clients in no uncertain term that you are the creator of a particular style.

Then as the market matures and "imitators" appear. You list them in your advertising as "imitators". Thereby letting your clients know that these products are rip-off's and inferior.

Another option is to do what Sal Glesser did with the Spyderco Hole. This is perhaps the most brilliant marketing strategy anyone has ever employed regarding style and functionality in the knife business.

You allow people to buy your idea for $25. You go so far as to list them in your advertising. Then (while not naming names) you admonish those who are ripping you off. If the makers name is not on the offical "Good Guy" list then they are a ripping off Spyderco.

There are no lawsuits, no patent defenses, etc. To those people that it matters to, they will not by products from those who Spyderco did not put on their good guy list.

To those who prefer to get a "look alike" for less money. There is nothing you can do to stop them. Especially if they are outside of the US.

So this is perhaps the answer for custom makers. When you come up with a "Style" idea. Copyright the description, trade mark the logo and brand name. Then take out full page ads in all the knife magazines to announce your new "Style".

However, this is where it gets tricky RW.
If you only emply short term memory, their could be complications.

Like your example of the Onion and the flipper. Actually, Ken never comes to mind for that, he comes to mind for the Speed Safe (a patented and trademarked mechanism). Kit Carson would probably come to mind for most collectors who have less than 10 years.

Here is the tricky part, what if Ken did do an aggressive ad campaign for the flipper. Then those of dinosaurs who have been around for 20 years or so in custom knives. Would say, what about Carson, Gilbreath, Pardue and Boguszewski? Three of the 4 are still currently making knives and are members of the Guild. As you wrote: "If this were any other field of business folks would be going to jail for stuff like insider trading or market price fixing".

If that were true, the aforementioned makers might have a legitmate "bone to pick".

By the way could you elaborate on your take of the "market price fixing". That is the second time I have heard that in the last two weeks.

RW you cannot disavow the past because these makers may not be in the memory of your current customers.

When I had John W. Smith, Darrel Ralph, Brian Tighe and Jim Hammond incorporate flippers into their Vanguard designs I was not thinking of Ken Onion. I thought of Mel Pardue.

As for my Vanguard designs being ripped off. It has already happened. By no less than one of the makers! I had a 15 year relationship with this maker. There were no lawsuits or letters to the Guild. I simply let him know that the balance of the order was cancelled, that I would never buy another knife from him again and he would be dropped from all future advertising and articles. This same thing happened with one of the LDC knives as well.

As for the dog tag chain in the 550 cord. I suspect that a maker did not come up with this. I base this on the fact I had a NCO show me how cover my dog tag chains with 550 cord while attending ROTC Advance Camp in 1982. I would offer to you that this was probably something that was done during the Vietnam War, possibly before that. I don't know when the current incarnation of 550 cord (Para Cord) became available.

Yes this is a very small knit community. Filled mostly by makers who want to help other makers succeed.

Several years ago I asked a maker to help other makers with the D/A folder designs. At first he was hesitant as he thought this would have a negative effect on his sales.

What I explained to him and he subsequently found to be true. Was that he was thought of as one of the one of the best D/A folder makers out there. By helping more makers learn how to do D/A's that he would help increase the market. As it would create more of a demand for D/A folders.

The Vanguard D/A's debuted in Jan 2000 and were featured in Tactical Knives in August 2000. Subsequently, there have been many more makers producing D/A's and the demand has grown. This maker has subsequently gone on to help several other makers develop D/A's. A few he even gave his "voodoo" bearing system too.

To date, his generosity of both his knowledge and time has done nothing but solidify his postion in this market. As well as earn respect from his peers and this knife dealer.

As you say it is a close-knit community and no where is that more evident than in the ABS.

Is there currently a more active ambassador in the ABS than Jerry Fisk? If so, I don't know who it would be. Jerry spends his time travelling the world teaching others how to forge blades. This is a man who's sole source of income comes from custom knives. Yet he spends hundreds of hours every year teaching others how to do what he does.

Is he creating competitors, yes. But he is also a smart enough businessman to udnerstand that by expanding forged blades and the ABS throughout the world. He is also increasing his customer base. As well as the base for other makers and makers who will follow over the next 20 years.

RW you need to give the custom knife buyers more credit. They know when something is being ripped off. They also know a makers "style" when they see it.

The Kit Carson Model 4 folder, Loveless drop point hunter, George Herron Model 12 fighter, Randall Model 1, Lile Sly II or Rambo II fighters, Bob Terzuola ATCF folder, Pat Crawford Leopard folder, Ernie Emerson CQC6 folder, Ron Lake T-Lock interframe, Steve Hoel "coke bottle" pattern interframe folder, etc. The list goes on and on.

RW you are doing the right thing by setting the example by giving credit to those makers who ideas you are currently using.

Perhaps that is the best solution of all.
 
Just got e-mailed some photos that made the lights click back on. Basically I was suffering from a brain fart reguarding the flippers. For some reason I was only thinking of the style that Ken is using on the Speedsafes. The other types were no where near entering my head. Now that the power has been turned back on I can see that yes, flipper have been around long before Onion.

As to defending your style. Wow, thats a sticky subject. Double so when it is a little known maker going up against a well known maker with a big following. I have seen it to often. Small maker points out that big maker stole his design. He is able to show how the big maker had access to the design. But as soon as he says something the big maker denies everything and the zealots tear the small maker to shreds. So I ask, how does one stand up for his rights and not end up missing a limb? Or better still how do you do it and not end up looking like the bad guy? At this point it seems that it is just not worth the fight.

With cheap offshore knockoffs it seems that everybody is in agreement that it sucks. But between two custom makers it tends to be a whole nuther story.

Any thought?

I like this thread. These are some really important issues. It would be nice if we could come up with some hard and fast answers, but I fear that they just do not exsist. I am afraid that, considering my new found position in Cal Knives, this is an area where I might have to read the riot act to a few makers. Does not sound like any fun and I hope I can avoid it.
 
Most of the knives I make are from drawings and from a customer that says they would like a knife made of differentially heat treated 52100 that is similiar to mine "but" and then change the tip, width, handle, and total length. I have no problem with that because that is what I like to do. I make what I like and then I make what my customer likes. I very rarely pay attention to factory knives and will recognize only a few makers styles. Those are mostly Moran, Scagle, Loveless, Randall, and a few more. I have looked at pictures of old knives to see if I can think of any way to improve them (read make smaller and lighter). If it happens that the customer sent me a copy of his favorite knife makers knife, he should be the one to explain that it is a copy and he has permission to use it. The last thing I need to do is look in every knives edition and try to find out if it is "like" some one elses. What ever the knife design, it will have my stamp on it and there will be no problem with identification (unless someone is making replica's of mine and trying to rip off the market :) ).
There are so many knives that have been made by so many different people, that any one can find something that is "just like" somebody else's. I have even had a customer order a knife just like a Pakistan knife that his friend had. Figure that one out.
The main reason that there are custom knife makers is that someone wants a knife made like he wants. He wants it made by the person that can do the best job in his price range and by a certain time so he can use it for whatever reason. The maker is obligated to his customers and if he can't do or won't do a certain job, then that is his choice. I don't see getting bent out of shape because you think you made the very first one "just like that". Chances are, that just happens to be the first one that "you saw" and there will be some one else that says you copied some one they know.
Les,
You are right in that Jerry does know that the more people that know of the forged blade, the larger everyones customer base will be. I also teach a forging class at the local Vo-Tech where I work and the students become aware of the time and skills needed to produce a forged blade. For every student that comes through the class, I figure that an additional 25 to 30 people will learn of the necessary requirements for making a forged blade. They all have relatives and work associates that "have to listen" to the latest news of their progress in making a knife. I just love that part, and the part of satisfaction when they complete the blade. They also come up with some wierd and good designs, all original or similiar to one of mine ( which is simple).
I kind of got off the main subject of copying anothers knife designs, but is it a copy of a copy of a copy, if you know what I mean.
 
RW,
Pictures and documentation, especially in the magazines are the best proof for a maker to stand behind. I had mentors that taught me that long ago, and it works.
 
Great conversation guys..., really intereting..., and some food for thought.


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
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