Camillus 21 peanut

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Feb 21, 2006
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Anyone know the dates of this pattern? I know I'm asking a broad question, and i'll try to post up some picks. Black Jigged plastic or rough black, that seems to curl ot at the bolsters. The front bolster has three lines through it. is the #21 a peanut or small jack?
Thanks,
Steve
 
Camillus called it a Pony Jack. It had stagged handles, probably early plastic or celluloid.

I am just starting the process of cataloging & dating the Camillus patterns, working from some old 1950s sheets from CAMCO (Tom Williams). Therefore I don't have the date range of the #21 yet, but I can tell you it was in production in 1956. Another list from the same time frame (mid-1950s) has a retail price of $2.25.

That is all the info I have at this point.

I hope it helps,
Dale
 
Thats great Orvet, thanks. Thats the year I was born.Makes it all the more appreciative.I'll try to get some better shots.
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Here's some more pics....
I was wondering if it was typical to see a line on the bolster appear to be hammered out or not continuous? You can see shrinkage in the handle scale pulling away from the liner. Can this be fixed? Is this celluloid or what they cal rough black?
Thanks if anyones got info.
The knife was defiately cleaned, something I prefer to do myself. The patina was left but theres scrape marks on the blade where there was rust.
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The shrinkage of the handles would indicate to me that it is celluloid.
Were it mine I would replace the scales with jigged bone. It will probably be the closest match you can find & you don't have to worry about the celluloid decomposing.

Dale
 
The shrinkage of the handles would indicate to me that it is celluloid.
Were it mine I would replace the scales with jigged bone. It will probably be the closest match you can find & you don't have to worry about the celluloid decomposing.

Dale

Dale:

For some reason, I thought that delrin was also subject to shrinkage, but I may be dead wrong. Also, I'm curious; when did celluloid fall out of favor? I know why, just not when.

Thanks,
 
Schrade used to advertise their knives as having "Indestructible Delrin handles."
I have never seen any knife that I knew to have Delrin handles, which had any shrinkage of the scales. It is an extremely stable plastic (from DuPont). Admittedly, I am not an expert in the field of plastics, but in my experience I have not seen Delrin shrink.

I think the reason celluloid use declined is because a new generation of much more stable plastics came along, led by Delrin. These new plastics were much more stable and didn't shrink, rarely cracked and did not off-gas.

From the knives I study & research (mostly Schrade & Camillus) it appears to me, from the catalogs that we began to see Delrin appear in pocketknives in the later 1950s.

In researching for this post I Googled "DuPont Delrin" and found the following link: http://delrin50.dupont.com/timeline.html
It appears that Delrin has recently celebrated its 50th anniversary. The only mention of cutlery in the timeline history is in the 1970s when it mentions that due to rising temps in dishwashers spurred the increased use of Delrin for steak knives and carving sets.

To answer; “When did celluloid fall out of favor?” I think it was a gradual process starting in the later 1950s and continuing on; by the 1970s there were few major companies using large quantities of celluloid. I don’t think celluloid use ever totally ceased, indeed we see a resurgence of the use of celluloid today by some companies. However, I think Delrin gradually replaced celluloid as the handle material of choice for inexpensive and mid range knives. This process was pretty well complete by the early 1970s.

I hope I have answered your question.
There is no date I can give you other than to say it was a gradual process.

Dale
 
This will teach me to post in the middle of the night when I am half asleep!
I should have posted the link to Dennis Ellingsen's article on celluloid on the Oregon Knife Collectors Association website. Here it is: http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

If I had gone back and reread even the first paragraph of the article, I would have had a date for you. It seems that in the late 1940s celluloid was pretty well on its way out among US knife manufacturers. By the early 1950s celluloid production in the United States was ended by government order, due to the hazardous nature of the product. Knife manufacturers were not the only ones having problems with celluloid; the movie industry was having problems with it also. As I think back about it now, I recall hearing of efforts some years ago in Hollywood to try and save some of the old films that were originally produced on celluloid film. These old movies are self-destructing just like the old knife handles.

Tom Williams (CAMCO) told me about the separate building at Camillus where the celluloid was produced for the knife handles. Dennis also mentions this in his article “Celluloid -- A Firm Maybe”. The roof of the building was on hinges so that it could break away (thus minimizing the damage to surrounding buildings) should there be a fire or explosion in the celluloid building.
IIRC, the celluloid production at Schrade ended when their celluloid facility was itself burned to the ground. I'm not sure on the date on this but I believe it was in the 1940s.

The new knives that we see these days with celluloid handles are imported knives. They are not made here in the United States.
Inevitably, someone will ask the question; "Is this new celluloid subject to the same problems of the old celluloid?"

To find the answer to this question you need only hang around any knife forum where the members collect some of these imported knives with the new celluloid handles. The answer is a resounding YES!

A special thanks to Dennis Ellingsen for taking the time to answer my questions so that I could correct my previous post!

Dale
 
After reading the article Dale, I didn't see any mention of fires or anything when they start to decompose, correct? when they decompose do they heat up? is there a danger of fire?
 
Camillus did actually produce some celluloid handle knives in the 1980s & 1990s.

I believe one of the first was the candy stripe Remington R1615. There was also some Camillus knives quite a bit later with celluloid faux Tortoise shell and a blue cracked ice.
They were from a newer type of celluloid developed for decorative handles in the US I think. It is not as bad as the original celluloid at corroding the metal parts of the knife, & not nearly as flamable.
I know the candy stripe has had a shrinking problem.
I have not yet seen any evidence of shrinking with the Camillus ones. I suspect it was an even more stable material as it is still available for knifemakers.
 
Camillus did actually produce some celluloid handle knives in the 1980s & 1990s.

Thank you Phil.
I was unaware of that.

Did Camillus make the celluloid they used in the 1980s & 1990s, or buy it from someone else? Was it imported to the USA or made here?

Thank you,
Dale
 
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After reading the article Dale, I didn't see any mention of fires or anything when they start to decompose, correct? when they decompose do they heat up? is there a danger of fire?


I have not heard of the decomposing celluloid causing any fires.
I think the fire danger is mainly in the manufacturing process.

Celluloid itself is flammable. I understand it will burn quite vigorously if subjected to fire.
However, I have not heard of celluloid causing spontaneous combustion.

Dale
 
Thanks for the info Dale. I keep them in a seperat drawer in my wooden tool chest now. I leave the drawer open slightly to let some air in, and or gas out. they're sitting on felt, which I don't think will hurt anything, I hope.
 
Most collectors seem to think the more air the better.
Many serious collectors avoid them all together or keep them on an open shelf so there is no gas build-up.

Dale
 
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