Camillus/Buck Question.

300Bucks

300Bucks

Joined
Apr 19, 2005
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Hello from the Buck forum,

Some on the Buck forum are seeking information on the 307 Wrangler, large stockman, Camillus contract knife. Recenty it seems to us a large number of 307s have appeared, some in multiple numbers, on a certain auction site.

These knifes were only made by Camillus and never by Buck. Speculation has run around to many ideas some good and some so-so. One of which is that someone bought the tooling for the 307 and is producing knives on the sly. (maybe even overseas)

Does anyone overhere have an opinion on that speculation. And does anyone know where items such as the Buck tooling went after the factory sale.

Thanks in advance for any help. We can maybe put some speculations to rest.

300Bucks
 
Great questions.
Phil and Tom may be around to answer these. There are a couple other Ex Camillus members around as well.

Hang in there.
Larry
 
Hope Phil or Tom will comment. I think we really consider that 'some' Buck contract knives were available in whole or parts during the sale and that would explain constant trickle of 307s, on ebay. The idea that tooling was taken somewhere and used to produce fake 307s is a little out in left field.....but who knows. Strange things sometimes happen.

300Bucks
 
All the tooling went to 2 US factories; except the handle molds which are languishing at the molders!
Most of the inventory of unassembled parts was scrapped.
I can safely speculate that the knives in question are NOT new production.

Much more likely they are from some of the large lots of knives (both finished & unfinished) that were sold at the auction.
Some of them just needed the pins sanded off & the final polishing.
I suspect the buyer of said knives has found someone to finish them.
 
The newspaper reports of the time say that ACME bought the name and Bear and Ontario bought the majority of the tooling, not all of the tooling.

That seems to leave some tooling unaccounted for, so does anybody know who else might have purchased tooling and if it could possibly be related to Buck 307 production?

They also say that Tom bought some of the tang stamps. Did he buy the Buck tang stamps? Does he have them now?

Does anyone have a good handle on how many Buck-stamped knives were sold at the auction?

Thanks.
 
Bear & Ontario bid on & won ALL THE TOOLING!They took all the blanking & forging tooling that I know of.
They did leave behind alot of "tooling"; mostly fixturing that would have been useless to them anyway. The scrap dealers hauled alot of weight out of there! :barf:
Other tooling existed at outside vendors factories (plastic molds, casting & forging tools etc.); & to my knowledge it is all still there!!

Tom took all the stamps that were found.

Frankly, IMHO, there is zero probability that Buck 300 series knives are being knocked out!

I estimate that several thousand Bucks were sold at the auction.
 
Phil Gibbs said:
Bear & Ontario bid on & won all the tooling. They took all the blanking & forging tooling that I know of.
Click to expand...

So you are positive that the tooling used for Buck 307s is in their possession at this time? Or is it unaccounted for?

Tom took all the stamps that were found.
Click to expand...

Were the Buck stamps found and does he still have them in his possession at this time? Or are they unaccounted for?

Oh......one last question. Were the Bucks sold at the auction sold with boxes or were there boxes sold alone at the auction?

Thanks for responding.

I'm thinking its highly unlikely that Buck 307s are being "knocked out," as you say.......I'm just curious as to reasonable doubt.
 
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Thanks Phil for the info. If just some polishing up is all that occurred for knives sold at auction, I think fellows can rest assured they are still buying a Buck knife. Appreciate hearing the history accounts of that sad situation.

300Bucks
 
Still interested in answers if anybody wants to try.

Answers modified by "all that I know of" and "all that were found" are appreciated, but they don't settle anything conclusively.

News reports of the auction (available on this forum) give the same type of information--there are indications that some items could have been missing.

The Buck stamps are not accounted for, nobody knows if 307 boxes were sold at the auction and nobody can place the Buck tooling at this moment, so there is reasonable doubt about new wave of 307s NIB with paperwork that are showing up.

I have a strong feeling that nobody can answer these questions with any degree of certainty, so I guess it will just have to remain in the realm of the questionable.
 
BG42EDGE said:
Still interested in answers if anybody wants to try.

Answers modified by "all that I know of" and "all that were found" are appreciated, but they don't settle anything conclusively.

News reports of the auction (available on this forum) give the same type of information--there are indications that some items could have been missing.

The Buck stamps are not accounted for, nobody knows if 307 boxes were sold at the auction and nobody can place the Buck tooling at this moment, so there is reasonable doubt about new wave of 307s NIB with paperwork that are showing up.

I have a strong feeling that nobody can answer these questions with any degree of certainty, so I guess it will just have to remain in the realm of the questionable.
Click to expand...

I understand your uncertainty.
I can state as fact that the blades/springs/lining & center scale tools are still in the USA.

Quite frankly, if your fear is China knockoffs, they would not have used the Camillus tools if you had offered to deliver them yourself!
The Chinese factories use very different methods & equipment.

Truth is most of the Camillus equipment was a lot older than me! :eek:

Also if I were a Chinese knock off artist, I would not be interested in an obscure knife like the 307; I would knockoff the 110!:p
 
It's obvious that you are not a Chinese knock-off artist. You are thinking in terms of one knife rather than many.

Have you seen the latest Chinese 110? Had a picture up on the forum recently and one guy said he could tell it wasn't the real thing by measuring the distance between two of the slab rivets. That was the best we could do.

Does anybody really think they lack the technology to make a perfect copy?

Forgive me for questioning, but.......how do you know where the Buck 307 tooling is? Have you seen it? I'm just curious.

I agree the Chinese (or whoever) might not want to use the Camillus/Buck tooling, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't want to study it to perfect their own tooling.

Buck stamps? Still MIA with no answers.

The latest flood of 307s are new in the box with paperwork.

Would all those unfinished knives you say were sold at the auction have had boxes and paperwork?

Far from having any fear or uncertainty about this, I find it enjoyable speculation. I do not suffer from it. I really enjoy it.

I just find whole concept quite fascinating. If people can counterfeit money they can counterfeit anything.
 
BG42EDGE said:
It's obvious that you are not a Chinese knock-off artist. You are thinking in terms of one knife rather than many.

Have you seen the latest Chinese 110? Had a picture up on the forum recently and one guy said he could tell it wasn't the real thing by measuring the distance between two of the slab rivets. That was the best we could do.

Does anybody really think they lack the technology to make a perfect copy?

Forgive me for questioning, but.......how do you know where the Buck 307 tooling is? Have you seen it? I'm just curious.

I agree the Chinese (or whoever) might not want to use the Camillus/Buck tooling, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't want to study it to perfect their own tooling.

Buck stamps? Still MIA with no answers.

The latest flood of 307s are new in the box with paperwork.

Would all those unfinished knives you say were sold at the auction have had boxes and paperwork?

Far from having any fear or uncertainty about this, I find it enjoyable speculation. I do not suffer from it. I really enjoy it.

I just find whole concept quite fascinating. If people can counterfeit money they can counterfeit anything.
Click to expand...

All the Chinese would need is 1 knife.
No tooling, no stamps.
They would learn NOTHING from the Camillus tooling.

To my knowledge the majority of the knives sold at the auction did not have boxes & papers.
A room full of boxes & papers (all brands) was sold at the auction in 1 or 2 lots.

I suspect you will never know for sure.

I do know one thing: you show me a Buck 307; I can tell you if it was made by Camillus Cutlery Company or not in complete certainty!
 
Phil Gibbs said:
To my knowledge the majority of the knives sold at the auction did not have boxes & papers.
A room full of boxes & papers (all brands) was sold at the auction in 1 or 2 lots.
I do know one thing: you show me a Buck 307; I can tell you if it was made by Camillus Cutlery Company or not in complete certainty!
Click to expand...

I have bought five of the "new" old 307's and without exception, they came with the boxes and paperwork. The same can be said for at least two other fellow Buck buyers I know who bought them. Mine came from three different sources.

Can you tell anthing from these?

307a.jpg


307b.jpg


307c.jpg


307d.jpg


307e.jpg


307f.jpg


307boxa.jpg
 
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Nice pictures, Dave. The brass liners don't look new because of the patina on them. I think as was said earlier that a lot of knives were sold at the auction.
 
Plumberdv said:
I have bought five of the "new" old 307's and without exception, they came with the boxes and paperwork. The same can be said for at least two other fellow Buck buyers I know who bought them. Mine came from three different sources.

Can you tell anthing from these?

307a.jpg


307b.jpg


307c.jpg


307d.jpg


307e.jpg


307f.jpg


307boxa.jpg
Click to expand...

Dave,

I see nothing in those pictures to suggest that the knife is not Camillus made.
However, to be 100% positive, I would need to handle the knife.
The Chinese may be able to make a fair copy, but in my opinion it is impossible for them to make it identical.
By a close up examination of the breakage (die tear) from the blanking & secondary operations, as well as a review of some "tell tale" Camillus operations on assorted part locations, I could definitely confirm it's heritage.

If you wish I would be more than happy to review the knife for you & would gladly pay for the return shipping to you. PM me for my address if you wish to proceed.
 
BG42EDGE said:
Have you seen the latest Chinese 110? Had a picture up on the forum recently and one guy said he could tell it wasn't the real thing by measuring the distance between two of the slab rivets. That was the best we could do.

Does anybody really think they lack the technology to make a perfect copy?
Click to expand...

Can you provide me a link to this thread please?

Have my friends at Buck been shown one of these?

Good knock off is possible.
Perfect copy is NOT.
 
RickR said:
Phil,

Ever see that packaging at Camillus? I never did.
Click to expand...

I never recall seeing those boxes either! :confused:

What's more, I always thought that most of the Bucks we made were bulk packed & were packed by Buck after their QC checks.

However, do you recall that the group that held The Company's Note shipped a large quantity of finished goods from the factory to their Texas offices just before shutting us down?
That would imply to me that these knives are not just Camillus made, but distributed through Buck too! :thumbup:
 
BG42EDGE said:
Phil,

Here's the thread about the good 110 copy.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=758210&highlight=110+china

The e-Bay links are expired, but there are some pictures in the thread.

You're right, a perfect copy is not likely, but neither do I think it is impossible if someone really wants to do it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link BG42 :thumbup:
Trust me that a Perfect Copy is impossible!
I have visited enough Chinese knife factories to truly understand their capabilities.
What's more, you could let me pick 3 former Camillus Knife Makers of my choice, & together we could not make a Perfect Copy if we had unlimited factory access to Case, Buck, Queen & Canal Street!!
It just can't be done well enough to fool someone well versed in Cutlery Forensics.

A 307 copy good enough to fool a consumer, sure!

To fool a collector, maybe?

To fool Buck's engineering department, out of the question!!!

By the way, did any of you pick up one of the 110 clones or immediately inform Factory officials?
We ALL need to work together to eradicate these parasites!
Prosecution for copying designs (or even patents) is tough at best.
Copying tang stamps (Trademark violation) is a Federal offense with massive penalties for all involved!
 
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