Can a collaboration with a manufacturer hurt a makers reputation?

PhilL

PhilL

Joined
Oct 1, 1999
Messages
6,490
I've never made a knife. I would think that if a manufacturer was interested in producing one of your designs, that would be very exciting. Can it ever go wrong? Where the end product just doesn't meet your standards, but it still has your name on it.
Then if the production piece becomes what you're known for. I mean it's like getting type cast as an actor. Can it hurt your reputation and career?
 
Phil,
This is certainly the old "is the cup half empty, or half full?" I have been approached by two companies during my knifemaking career, and have turned both of them down. The first one because I was too young and inexperienced to realize what was happening. The second instance I rejected for the exact reason you stated. We were discussing materials, and all they were concerned with was the economy of manufacture, whereas I wanted quality. Needless to say, we could not come to a meeting of the minds.
I have noticed recently, that quality has become important to the companies, an example being the production runs of Ken Onion's designs. I have handled/used this one, and must say that it is one of the best "factory"
knives, both in materials and craftmanship' I have seen in recent years.
There is no doubt that if one wishes to make a good living as a maker, having a company produce your designs is a plus. I also carry the thought that unless done with care, it can trap a maker into a a specific persona, that may be difficult to change. It all boils down what is important to the maker. Just my thoughts.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
I like the “Type Casting” analogy a lot, but it might just have the opposite effect. Wouldn’t you love to have Allen Elishewitz’s first hand forged Damascus fixed blade? I know I’ll be bugging Lynn Griffith for a folder now that he admits to having made one in the past.

But on topic, there is always a risk involved in any new enterprise. It has to be weighed against the potential benefits, such as profit and expanded name recognition. I think that the good products put out by Benchmade, Spyderco and more recently Outdoor Edge have most likely been positive experiences for the makers. In fact, I seldom heard many good things about CRK&T until the Carson series came out, and no one seems to think any less of him for the collaborations he has taken part in.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
Phil,
From my standpoint, it has done nothing but help me.

Look at the knifemakers that are working with the manufacturers - Centofante, Terzuola, Pardue, Elishewitz, Walker, Lum, to name but a few. Doesn't appear to have hurt any of them.

So far, I've worked with Buck, Outdoor Edge, and CRK&T and have learned a tremendous amount on the factory side of knifemaking. All of these things have helped me in my business. Great companies to work with, I might add.

A maker has to realize that a manufacturer might not be able to do it his way, due to materials or economy of production. That's okay. That doesn't equate to poor quality.

He also has to feel comfortable in the relationship. If he does his homework he will know if they have a good reputation or not and the quality of their work. If he's smart he'll use the "knifemaker grapevine" and call other makers that have worked with that company.

It's a great chance for a maker to improve his knowledge base, get his name out a little more, and hopefully make a few dollars in the process. He's just gotta look at it like an investment and treat it the same way.
 
no one can see the future....and so we dont know the outcome of anything we set out to do, but we should do our homework first... i know a few high end art knife makers who have told me to NEVER get into a situation like that....and i know some makers who have hurt their reps by not working on the sitution and just hoping to make some money, and when the product came out funky they looked pretty silly...and it hurt them for a long time.....its like everyone has already said....you need to be careful..its your name, make sure you are getting into something that will be positive in the long run.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
I feel it is the golden ring of knife making to collaborate with a good factory knife company.
There are knife makers who say never me ... But when the time comes (if it comes) they say jump how high?

I feel it the greatest honor there is.
As for hurting my business .. NO WAY...


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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 18 December 1999).]
 
I have Pro's and con's about it look a Fred Carter from whichita fall's and the knife that come out with his name on them Fred is one of the top maker's in the field but the knives I saw with his name on them I don't think were quite up to par I seen 4 different ones from 3 different people and they would either not close right or failed miserably on the tap the back and close up on your hand deal so I would have reservations about that .

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tbark
 
Thank you all for responding. It looks like the answer is, yes, no and maybe. Which I'm not at all surprised by.
I think that the custom makers are helping to improve the manufacturers product, and the opposite is also true. It's the people like me that reap the benefit, a better product no matter what my budget. I don't know of any industry where this is more true. Or where a guy like me could go and get this kind of feedback so quickly, from people like you.
 
Tbark
This is the point Kit was making I think and the one I am making. Good factory is the buzz word here. I dont know who is working with who but I do know this. David Bloch promised me several things when the first collaboration of the impulse knife was started and I feel he has done a fantastic job of making sure the product with my name on it is quality!
We have other projects going right now also. I have to say that David is a very picky and micro managing type person. That has good point and bad. In my case good. I know the knives with my name on them are INSPECTED 100 percent before leaving outdoor edge.
This I am pleased about. David expects the best. He drives until he gets it. I like this point about him. He will shine above the rest in the future if the others cannot compete with his quest to produce the best!



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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
Yes it can definatly hurt a makers rep. If you decide to sign on and they make your knife out of cheap materials and call it "Automantic John's Puppy Dog Slasher" (AJPDS) first you will be forced to kill your lawyer for not reading that contract you signed and then you will have to kick yourself and wonder why all your buisness has dried up.

While thankfully these negative collaborations are the exception rather than the rule you can never be to careful when a manufacturer approaches you to design a knife for them.

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Later,
John
 
Even a long term successful colaboration, can sometimes mislead the General Public, as to who a Maker really is, or what he's capable of. The case in point Gil Hibben and a thread that came up in the General Knife Discussion Forum, just this week. I know I over reacted to the thread, but I just kind of lost it for awhile. If it can happen to Gil Hibben my guess is it could happen to just about anyone.
Kit, I wonder if there is anyone that's surprised to learn that you're a living Knife maker and not a deceased Scout?
 
Phil,
I'm a living Scout that happens to be a full time knifemaker. Spent 20 years, mostly in the Cavalry, doing that business. No, not on horses. Ain't been retired but 6 years.
 
Long time knife fans know that Gil Hibben is one of the true pioneers of handmade knives. It was pointed out in the thread that you referred to that the United Cutlery Hibbens fill a need for some but Gil is still a first class maker.
He has been making knives for like 40 years and stuck with it through the early days when there wasnt the huge market we have today, so why shouldnt he make some cash now.
At the NY Show in November he had some really nice handmade pieces on his table.
Look through some old Knives annual books for pics of some of his work, from high art folders to using knives.
He also has 2 sons, Darryl and Wesley who are excellent makers in their own right.

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lifter
Phil. 4:13

Dave
Wharton,NJ


 
A production collaboration can obviously hurt a maker if the product is bad. But a more subtle effect is when it hurts the custom work of a maker. People who do not collect handmades and could be inclined to buy a custom knife will buy the production version instead.

Then when you look in the for sale forum, you see ads like "Emerson folder for sale" or "Ken Onion for sale" and when you click on it, it turns out to be a production knife. If the product turns out to be bad it will definitely affect the maker.

But, if you're a maker and you work really hard and someone offers you 10s of thousands or more of liquid capital up front, it could be worth it.

Jason
 
An interesting topic. I believe that the benefit or damage to a reputation depends upon the relationship that the maker has with the factory.If the maker simply hands over a design and his name, it is likely that the factory will cut corners so as to maximize profits. However, if the relationship is one of cooperation and the maker is understood to have final say on the product and only lends his name when he is satisfied with the materials and quality, I believe a knifemaker can benefit from a collaboration, and not only monetarily.
When Sal Glesser of Spyderco first approached me for a Clipit design in 1989, we had been friends for several years. We knew each others standards of quality and willingness to truly collaborate and produce a product we both could be proud of. I was up front with him about my requirements for using ATS-34 (never before used in a factory folder), and having the knives made in the USA, not Japan (resulting in the eventual creation of Spyderco Manufacturing in Golden Co.).
The resulting C-15 became somewhat of a milestone in American made pocket knives, being the first factory knife made in the USA (or anywhere else) using ATS-34 steel, the liner lock and G-10 for its handles. (Few people know that even Benchmade got its start from this knife since Les D'Asis was the original manufaturer, even before Benchmade existed).
My later collaborations with Camillus and Phil Gibbs have also proven to be great experiences and they have shown themselves to be willing to put the extra work and effort into all of the projects we have created.
I know for a fact that Benchmade will also work closely with a custom knifemaker and will go the extra mile to produce an outstanding product.
The bottom line is, Know with whom you are working and set the guidelines early as far as materials and quality are concerned. Any agreement should also include the right of the knifemaker to pass final judgement on the end product before his name is applied to it.
 
This has been great, I hope all of the New Makers take the time to read and learn from you Pro's, before they grab for the Brass Ring.
Especially Bob's
"The bottom line is, Know with whom you are working and set the guidelines early as far as materials and quality are concerned. Any agreement should also include the right of the knifemaker to pass final judgement on the end product before his name is applied to it."
Real words of wisdom.
Thanks again to all!
 
Kit,
I knew it. I posted earlier,
"Kit, I wonder if there is anyone that's surprised to learn that you're a living Knife maker and not a deceased Scout?"
Well today I get a call from a guy I used to work with, he knows I'm a knifenut, and he receives the A.G. Russell Catalog because he once ordered a knife for me. The knife he likes best is the "Magna", and I say "Sure the one by Kit Carson, I've had the chance to talk to him at BladeForums." He goes "What are you talking about, you mean he's a real person? I thought they were just using the name like Betty Crocker or Uncle Ben."
Funny huh?

 
Lynn, I think you're destined for Stardom, and people a lot more savy then I am agree. I hope you and Sal do come to an agreement. Just to play Devil's Advocate what manufacturer would you steer clear of? For others, who would you advise Lynn to think twice about, before a collaboration?
 
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